CPL General

[RS]

17 minutes ago, Ansem said:

They did what York 9 and other CPL clubs should have done from the get go in 2018 at least.

Play in standalone communities that aren't in the shadow of giant metropolises with countless entertainment options?

[Bison44]

^^^ That sure helps.  

[RS]

Just now, Bison44 said:

^^^ That sure helps.  

I'm not taking anything away from what ECFC has done off the field. Connecting to the community is a huge task and requires real work.

That said a place like Peterborough (or Halifax) is definitely easier to establish such connections.

[Cblake]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

They did what York 9 and other CPL clubs should have done from the get go in 2018 at least. Bravo Electric CIty! Current and future CPL clubs, take some notes.

 

The thing that also jumped out to me was the amount of A-Frame ads along the field, they have really engaged the local busines community. I know York is not really the greatest CPL example to use as a comparison since they play in a major city where they are so far down the pecking order. But this Peterborough local ownership group has done the one thing that all CPL teams should do, engage. That is the key to success or at least have a fighting chance. 

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, RS said:

Play in standalone communities that aren't in the shadow of giant metropolises with countless entertainment options?

The marketing work that York 9 never put in. Claiming that Toronto can't support more than 1 club is ridiculous 

Edited May 8, 2022 by Ansem

[RS]

1 minute ago, Ansem said:

The marketing work that York 9 never put in. Claiming that Toronto can't support more than 1 club is ridiculous 

Well it's a good thing no one in this conversation made such a claim, isn't it?

Discounting the very obvious challenges a team like York has compared to the like of ECFC would be equally ridiculous, but luckily no one here is doing that, right?

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

 

[Kingston]

A great crowd!  And a 3-0 win for the home team to send everyone away happy, which will help for future attendance.

[Unnamed Trialist]

Just thought I'd comment, looking at Electric City, that Thunder Bay Chill got crowds of a thousand and more in many PDL seasons.

So it is not novel nor unprecedented for amateur soccer, and as said here, just takes a bit of focus and skill on the part of the club itself.

[Ansem]

19 hours ago, RS said:

Well it's a good thing no one in this conversation made such a claim, isn't it?

Discounting the very obvious challenges a team like York has compared to the like of ECFC would be equally ridiculous, but luckily no one here is doing that, right?

I made an assumption.

I answered you that marketing was their main problem and they did it wrong on the onset contrarily to ECFC. A solid 95%+ of North York have no clue they exist.

Yes it's a challenge but it shouldn't be an excuse either 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

They actually drew a fairly reasonable crowd when they played the Impact on a weeknight in the Canadian Championship in 2019. Plenty of people in the GTA's wider soccer community are no doubt already well aware that they exist in other words, they are just not particularly interested in paying money to watch this level of soccer live:

Nothing new there. Since cable TV kicked in to provide extra entertainment options and interest in the NSL waned that same state of affairs has been applicable to the Blizzard and Rockets in the CSL (a visit from the 86ers sometimes drew a fairly reasonable crowd), the Lynx in the USL and various NSL/CNSL/CPSL/CSL teams.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Kingston]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Just thought I'd comment, looking at Electric City, that Thunder Bay Chill got crowds of a thousand and more in many PDL seasons.

So it is not novel nor unprecedented for amateur soccer, and as said here, just takes a bit of focus and skill on the part of the club itself.

Back from 2009 to 2014 (Victoria) or 2015 (London), the PDL versions of the Highlanders and Forest City used to routinely draw over 1000.  In fact, starting in 2009, Victoria had 17 straight home games with over 1000 while London had 15.  London's record was 3482 while Victoria's record was 2412.

[Kingston]

6 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

They actually drew a fairly reasonable crowd when they played the Impact on a weeknight in the Canadian Championship in 2019.

The attendance at that match was 5252 which is, I believe, York's all time record by a fair margin.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

8 minutes ago, Kingston said:

Back from 2009 to 2014 (Victoria) or 2015 (London), the PDL versions of the Highlanders and Forest City used to routinely draw over 1000.  In fact, starting in 2009, Victoria had 17 straight home games with over 1000 while London had 15.  London's record was 3482 while Victoria's record was 2412.

...then when they both were interested in stepping up to USL's D3 pro level, Victor Montagliani & Co imposed a moratorium on further Canadian entries at that level in USSF sanctioned leagues and the momentum that was building stalled. My understanding is that spectator interest in Forest City London has fallen away to a large extent in an L1O context, unfortunately, but I haven't been in London much in the summer months in recent years to witness that first hand.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Unnamed Trialist]

These stats are interesting as they demonstrate how the levels, after MLS, drop off a fair bit and overlap.

This suggests two things. One is that there is still a perception that MLS offers a superior soccer experience, and it is not just because of stadiums or location or even visiting rivals. 

Then, regarding CPL and the tiers below. We have to accept that the attendances are related to a new league, so any conclusions can't be definitive

But that said, there are overlaps, where you can see low end CPL could be pushed by higher end L1 iterations, and these in turn could be rivalled by PDL and similar. I can't speak to U-Sports. The essential challenge for CPL has got to be to make a shift, from 1500 crowds to 4000 plus, and here it is not obviously not a question of fan base or rivals visiting. Edmonton is a great sports city but the lack of investment in a stadium and amenities is damning. 

Looking at T-Bay Chill over the years (they have played 20 PDL/USL2 seasons), which I even reported on years ago on this board, crowds can be anywhere from 350 to 850, and then if the season is good and the weather, they can go over 1000. And more if they get playoff matches.

I think where they play, Chapples Park, they are building a new soccer centre, or maybe it is in planning stage, but looks like it could be a strong facility. With an indoor turf facility. And they are playing their USL2 12 game season again this year.

I admit I can speak a bit more to T-Bay as I have been there, if I hadn't it may be an outlier like it is for most here. I think, to my recollection, we've never had a Chill fan or board member, or player even, ever appear on this board.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

They actually drew a fairly reasonable crowd when they played the Impact on a weeknight in the Canadian Championship in 2019. Plenty of people in the GTA's wider soccer community are no doubt already well aware that they exist in other words, they are just not particularly interested in paying money to watch this level of soccer live:

Nothing new there. Since cable TV kicked in to provide extra entertainment options and interest in the NSL waned that same state of affairs has been applicable to the Blizzard and Rockets in the CSL (a visit from the 86ers sometimes drew a fairly reasonable crowd), the Lynx in the USL and various NSL/CNSL/CPSL/CSL teams.

How would you know? You've been to a game yet?

I live in North York, virtually no one heard of York 9 (they wouldn’t know about them in 2020) nor 2021-2022 for York United.

They aren't advertised anywhere in the borough, malls, transit, NYCC nor mainstream media. 

People can't be willing to play for this level of soccer if they don't even know it exists.

About the MTL game which I attended and you didn’t, there were LOTS of TFC fans at the game who came to witness a possible upset. Casuals didn’t even know this game was happening.

Keep doing what you do best, leaving context out of it.

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

...then when they both were interested in stepping up to USL's D3 pro level, Victor Montagliani & Co imposed a moratorium on further Canadian entries at that level in USSF sanctioned leagues and the momentum that was building stalled. My understanding is that spectator interest in Forest City London has fallen away to a large extent in an L1O context, unfortunately, but I haven't been in London much in the summer months in recent years to witness that first hand.

Momentum? USL? where, how?

Edited May 9, 2022 by Ansem

[Kingston]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The essential challenge for CPL has got to be to make a shift, from 1500 crowds to 4000 plus, and here it is not obviously not a question of fan base or rivals visiting.

That is the essential challenge (although I'd suggest they need 5000).  Some teams are okay, or close to it, but several need to basically double their attendance.  They have some time due to supportive owners, but I'm not sure how they grow that fan base that far.  There are a lot of sports teams in a lot of leagues in a bunch of different sports who are all trying to grow their attendance.  Unfortunately, not many get anywhere close to doubling it.

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, Kingston said:

That is the essential challenge (although I'd suggest they need 5000).  Some teams are okay, or close to it, but several need to basically double their attendance.  They have some time due to supportive owners, but I'm not sure how they grow that fan base that far.  There are a lot of sports teams in a lot of leagues in a bunch of different sports who are all trying to grow their attendance.  Unfortunately, not many get anywhere close to doubling it.

CPL has to find a way to get mainstream attention and at the very least get on the news and more accessible to casuals.

Whenever the league was on CBC, they did have strong viewership. It starts there but CSB gave it all to Onesoccer so they dont have that much of a say on the media side. It's imperative that Rogers and Bell carries Onesoccer on their sport channel bundles.

I'd say that mainstream media exposure will be the new commissioner biggest task. The clubs and players and the pitch can only do so much without mainstream media. 

Casuals have that name for a reason... They don't go out of their ways to find you, you have to get to them - the league's biggest challenge as of now.

[gigi riva]

3 hours ago, Ansem said:

CPL has to find a way to get mainstream attention and at the very least get on the news and more accessible to casuals.

Whenever the league was on CBC, they did have strong viewership. It starts there but CSB gave it all to Onesoccer so they dont have that much of a say on the media side. It's imperative that Rogers and Bell carries Onesoccer on their sport channel bundles.

I'd say that mainstream media exposure will be the new commissioner biggest task. The clubs and players and the pitch can only do so much without mainstream media. 

Casuals have that name for a reason... They don't go out of their ways to find you, you have to get to them - the league's biggest challenge as of now.

Trying to get mainstream attention is and will be the Leagues biggest challenge how they do it I am not sure how especially living in a multi sport nation like Canada. It has taking MLS many years to just to get in the par with MLB who they mostly compete with during the coarse of the year , and in some Markets like Seattle I think they are a bigger deal than the MLB team

[SpursFlu]

There is nothing the league can do to get TSN or Sportsnet involved. It's going to be alternate media and fans that drive this league to where it needs to be. Deal with it and push forward 

I personally think this will happen. I really like what ive seen this season. We need big games and a positive attitude. Tell a friend, bring a friend, engage online, be engaged with your team and be patient 

It reminds of when the Whitecaps started to grow around the time they went back to being the Whitecaps. You'd drag a soccer snob buddy to a game on a sunny day. He'd start the game crossed arms off to the side. A few beers in he'd be in to it, singing and would always want to go back

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, gigi riva said:

Trying to get mainstream attention is and will be the Leagues biggest challenge how they do it I am not sure how especially living in a multi sport nation like Canada. It has taking MLS many years to just to get in the par with MLB who they mostly compete with during the coarse of the year , and in some Markets like Seattle I think they are a bigger deal than the MLB team

Interesting to compare soccer and baseball fan bases.

Seattle, that is just because Safeco (now T-Mobile) is a smaller cozier stadium. It's not tiny, but it is very tight and well proportioned, it has a great feel, but it is smaller than the Sounders venue. I think it is recognised to be amongst the better venues in MLB.

Also remember the Mariners have never gone that deep, they don't have a winning tradition to justify a bigger stadium, I think not even an AL championship in this century. If they'd win, the venue would be even more admired, but they don't have a World Series legacy to enhance the place.

Then, another factor: Seattle fans are knowledgeable about baseball, I've been and was surprised how totally attentive fans were, every pitch. No wandering around, which is the classic American sports experience, pay, go, and drift about bored, slurping on something. Not in Seattle. Not even stretching for the 7th inning, sitting and waiting.

I have lots of family in Seattle so have this view: some baseball fans won't sit just anywhere, it is a much more specific viewing experience and the good spots are taken if you care. Meaning you could expand into the outfield or up higher, but that is not where fans who are really into the game want to be. It is not like the Jays--generally agreed to be amongst the worst 5 venues in MLB-- and really a vast majority of MLB teams where people go for a fun day out, they don't care where they sit, and really pay only half attention. I personally want to be over either foul line, near 1st or 3rd base, I am beyond the years I went to see the Expos for a dollar in the outfield and had to check the scoreboard to see if it was a ball or strike.

Soccer is a much less specific viewing experience. I can go to the upper third tier at Camp Nou and really enjoy my team, and that means basically sitting higher up than anyone in Europe. I watch the choreography (limping a bit lately, to be sure). Few soccer fans miss details in a mid-to-large stadium even, while in baseball, to be frank, you miss a lot if you are not in an optimal location.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[Watchmen]

4 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I think it is recognised to be amongst the better venues in MLB.

It's not.

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/nationals/ranking-all-30-mlb-ballparks

It's generally somewhere in the middle of most rankings - it's not the dumps of Tampa/Oakland/Toronto but not among the betters ones.  And our experiences at games are much different, as I'm usually surrounded by fans drinking and paying little attention to the game.  Which isn't a complaint from me, just that my experience is much different from yours.

[narduch]

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

10 hours ago, Watchmen said:

It's not.

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/nationals/ranking-all-30-mlb-ballparks

It's generally somewhere in the middle of most rankings - it's not the dumps of Tampa/Oakland/Toronto but not among the betters ones.  And our experiences at games are much different, as I'm usually surrounded by fans drinking and paying little attention to the game.  Which isn't a complaint from me, just that my experience is much different from yours.

I saw one list, checking after that had it 8th. If they'd play a World Series there, it's status would be enhance (I saw they are the only team in MLB to never play a WS).

The point in any case, is that some spectator experiences drop off drastically depending where you are sitting, and some don't. You can watch a 100 m or 1500 at the Olympics from anywhere in an Olympic stadium and still enjoy it fully. If you are watching high jump, better to be on that end of the stadium, obviously. Soccer holds up well, and then, interestingly, those in what could be called the "worst" seats where you might miss details in the opposing box, are often filled by supporter groups--so you are into another sort of gameday experience. This is a great advantage I think, as a fan can enjoy a football match pretty well the same from most spots in a stadium, and often more expensive seats are actually not even worth it.