CPL General

[harrycoyster]

9 minutes ago, Ansem said:

CPL needs to be serious at making academies and developing their own starts at the same time.

I agree. Which is why the news that Halifax has no plans to create an academy and will instead rely on the existing youth infrastructure is the worst news  we've gotten about the CPL so far.

[Ansem]

4 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

I agree. Which is why the news that Halifax has no plans to create an academy and will instead rely on the existing youth infrastructure is the worst news  we've gotten about the CPL so far.

Not having a D3 Maritime league or PLSQ extending to the Maritime like in Junior hockey is a huge roadblock to overcome. CSA is unlikely to allow new teams to join PDL or USL-USL/3

D3 needs a major revamp and/or the CSA to follow through with their project of an OHL style D3 system. As is, they don't have a choice to affiliate with a PLSQ team

[Rheo]

1 minute ago, harrycoyster said:

I agree. Which is why the news that Halifax has no plans to create an academy and will instead rely on the existing youth infrastructure is the worst news  we've gotten about the CPL so far.

They didn't rule it out forever, just not at launch.  I have no problem if teams rely on the existing academy's are out there.  Fairly sure those academies are going to benefit from any sort of arrangement. 

Like I've said, there isn't an infinite amount of money out there to fulfill everyone's dreams, wants and needs for the perfect league. This is going to be a long process and people who expect everything immediately need to face the reality of this.

Now we can go back to Kumbaya

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

2 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

I agree. Which is why the news that Halifax has no plans to create an academy and will instead rely on the existing youth infrastructure is the worst news  we've gotten about the CPL so far.

Think people need to compare how much CPL teams appear to be planning to spend in total and the budgets of MLS academies. They are reasonably comparable, so Halifax are just spelling out the reality of the finances that are involved when a business plan is geared towards metro areas as small as 200k. MLS academies and reserve teams are a big part of what is fueling the overall boom in D2 soccer in North America at the moment and the soon to be added D3 layer that will provide an ECHL equivalent, because they are churning out pro level players who won't all be able to make it onto an MLS roster but can still provide an entertainment product that is well worth watching. People that view MLS as the enemy or rival of CPL rather than the engine that is making it potentially possible are letting national pride get in the way of rationality.

[Ansem]

8 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

People that view MLS as the enemy or rival of CPL rather than the engine that is making it potentially possible are letting national pride get in the way of rationality.

Competitors to some extend. Bill Manning took the first shot by saying as much. It's not about national pride or any of that none-sense, but simply business. They are competing for viewership, attendance, merchandise, domestic cups, potentially players and media attention.

Sports, is a business remember that

Edited August 10, 2017 by Ansem

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Just now, Ansem said:

Competitors to some extend. Bill Manning took the first shot by saying as much. It's not about national pride or any of that none-sense, but simply business

I suspect they are much more relaxed now Paul Beirne is doing the talking rather than Duane Rollins, Anthony Totera or John McGrane as the tone is very different when he lays out a vision for how the league could expand over many decades. Beyond that on academies, an additional point that's worth making is that if you want to turn the larger youth clubs in one of the smaller metro-sized cities into fierce enemies rather than potential partners in ticket sales terms, the best way to go about it is to take all their best players and undermine their efforts to chase after provincial and national title. That may also be a big part of why Halifax sees the way ahead as working with the setup that is already in place.

[harrycoyster]

4 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Competitors to some extend. Bill Manning took the first shot by saying as much. It's not about national pride or any of that none-sense, but simply business

That's understandable in that they are competitors off the field, but any chance of the CPL competing with MLS on the field will have disappeared by 2022 when MLS signs their new TV contract. In an ideal world, the CPL and MLS are working together to develop Canadian talent and form a steady CPL to MLS to Europe pipeline.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

A lot also depends on where you live on this. If you are in a city that is distant from Toronto, TFC isn't going to be much of a rival for a pro team that launches in your city and the prospect of Giovinco and co showing up for a Voyageurs Cup game will help boost rather than deflate interest.

[ReedOnTheGrand]

39 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

That's understandable in that they are competitors off the field, but any chance of the CPL competing with MLS on the field will have disappeared by 2022 when MLS signs their new TV contract. In an ideal world, the CPL and MLS are working together to develop Canadian talent and form a steady CPL to MLS to Europe pipeline.

In an Ideal world CPL and Canadian MLS clubs are making pipelines for players to go pro. The ideal world can have players moving up to MLS as a stepping stone but it really doesn't have to be MLS after CPL. In fact with the way MLS contracts are structured it's a bad stepping stone and more of a good final destination if that's where your talent level is. CPL and MLS won't need to work together anymore than the SPL and EPL do.

[Ansem]

48 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

That's understandable in that they are competitors off the field, but any chance of the CPL competing with MLS on the field will have disappeared by 2022 when MLS signs their new TV contract. In an ideal world, the CPL and MLS are working together to develop Canadian talent and form a steady CPL to MLS to Europe pipeline.

New TV contract when cable TV on the way out and their viewership is still mediocre...we'll have to see as even experts aren't sure.

What are you saying? That by 2022 they'll be as strong as Ligue 1? A bit over optimistic don't you think? Sure they'll be able to spend more but will they spend more wisely than they are now? The salary disparity in that league is so huge that you're far from grasping the entire picture of that league. I'm talking dumping over 70% of the overall salary on 3 DP type of example

Your ideal world is fantasy and you still don't completely accept that at it's core, pro sports is a business and those two working together will never happen.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Ansem

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

I suspect they are much more relaxed now Paul Beirne is doing the talking rather than Duane Rollins, Anthony Totera or John McGrane as the tone is very different when he lays out a vision for how the league could expand over many decades. Beyond that on academies, an additional point that's worth making is that if you want to turn the larger youth clubs in one of the smaller metro-sized cities into fierce enemies rather than potential partners in ticket sales terms, the best way to go about it is to take all their best players and undermine their efforts to chase after provincial and national title. That may also be a big part of why Halifax sees the way ahead as working with the setup that is already in place.

Fair point 

[Alex D]

1 hour ago, ReedOnTheGrand said:

In an Ideal world CPL and Canadian MLS clubs are making pipelines for players to go pro. The ideal world can have players moving up to MLS as a stepping stone but it really doesn't have to be MLS after CPL. In fact with the way MLS contracts are structured it's a bad stepping stone and more of a good final destination if that's where your talent level is. CPL and MLS won't need to work together anymore than the SPL and EPL do.

MLS generally does not pay transfer fees except for significant signings. CPL clubs are not going to volunteer their best talent to MLS for no return. 

It is exciting though how many new paths will be opening up for Canadian players. Before 2007 it was "go to Europe and hope for the best". 

Edited August 10, 2017 by Alex D

[dyslexic nam]

2 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

It's just the unbridled optimism of a new league. Nobody has reality to get jaded about yet. The guy who wants to see the CPL be primarily a league for Canadians to develop and the guy who wants an MLS competitor are still signing kumbaya together because neither's dreams have been crushed yet. The league is everything for everyone right now. 

CPL - the Schroedinger's Cat of world footy.

[harrycoyster]

5 minutes ago, Alex D said:

MLS generally does not pay transfer fees except for significant signings. CPL clubs are not going to volunteer their best talent to MLS for no return. 

This isn't true. MLS regularly pays transfer fees to the Central American, South American and Mexican leagues. Even the stand alone USL/NASL teams from time to time. The majority of MLS signings are frees as a result of the fact that actual money isn't exchanged in inter-MLS movement and that MLS is a top landing spot for most of the world's free agents as a result of the salaries.

If a MLS team wants a player in the CPL, they'll do the loan with option to buy thing that they do like 5 times a year with the Panamanian league.

[ReedOnTheGrand]

42 minutes ago, Alex D said:

MLS generally does not pay transfer fees except for significant signings. CPL clubs are not going to volunteer their best talent to MLS for no return. 

It is exciting though how many new paths will be opening up for Canadian players. Before 2007 it was "go to Europe and hope for the best". 

I'd say the bad factor is they don't pay training compensation, having good young CPL players funnel through MLS would mean less money for CPL clubs in the future. 

[harrycoyster]

1 minute ago, ReedOnTheGrand said:

I'd say the bad factor is they don't pay training compensation, having good young CPL players funnel through MLS would mean less money for CPL clubs in the future. 

It is up to the team receiving the transfer to insure the money for training compensation and solidarity payments is a part of the transfer. When MLS teams transfer in players from Argentina, the youth clubs get their money. The issue is that when an MLS club transfers out a player like DeAndre Yedlin or Brek Shea the MLS team keeps all the money.

While I think that is crazy, I don't exactly have a ton of sympathy for these youth teams that charge $3000 a year for kids to play in the USSDA then cry for training compensation. I guess it's a chicken and egg argument.

[ReedOnTheGrand]

1 minute ago, harrycoyster said:

It is up to the team receiving the transfer to insure the money for training compensation and solidarity payments is a part of the transfer. When MLS teams transfer in players from Argentina, the youth clubs get their money. The issue is that when an MLS club transfers out a player like DeAndre Yedlin or Brek Shea the MLS team keeps all the money.

While I think that is crazy, I don't exactly have a ton of sympathy for these youth teams that charge $3000 a year for kids to play in the USSDA then cry for training compensation. I guess it's a chicken and egg argument.

Article 20 RSTP is entitled “Training compensation” and provides as follows:

“Training compensation shall be paid to a player’s training club(s): (1) when a player signs his first contract as a professional, and (2) each time a professional is transferred until the end of the season of his 23rd birthday. The obligation to pay training compensation arises whether the transfer takes place during or at the end of the player’s contract. The provisions concerning training compensation are set out in Annexe 4 of these regulations.”

The problem for CPL dealing with MLS is part 2. Say a young player moves to MLS from CPL at 19 then at 22 moves on to Europe for a decent chunk of money, the CPL team should see money but wouldn't.

[harrycoyster]

1 minute ago, ReedOnTheGrand said:

Article 20 RSTP is entitled “Training compensation” and provides as follows:

“Training compensation shall be paid to a player’s training club(s): (1) when a player signs his first contract as a professional, and (2) each time a professional is transferred until the end of the season of his 23rd birthday. The obligation to pay training compensation arises whether the transfer takes place during or at the end of the player’s contract. The provisions concerning training compensation are set out in Annexe 4 of these regulations.”

The problem for CPL dealing with MLS is part 2. Say a young player moves to MLS from CPL at 19 then at 22 moves on to Europe for a decent chunk of money, the CPL team should see money but wouldn't.

I can't think of a situation in which a player has transferred into MLS then out of MLS before turning 23, so I can't say definitively what would happen. That would be a very rare occurrence.

[ReedOnTheGrand]

Just now, harrycoyster said:

I can't think of a situation in which a player has transferred into MLS then out of MLS before turning 23, so I can't say definitively what would happen. That would be a very rare occurrence.

It would be very rare but it becomes more likely if CPL becomes a pipeline like some people want. 

[harrycoyster]

3 minutes ago, ReedOnTheGrand said:

It would be very rare but it becomes more likely if CPL becomes a pipeline like some people want. 

Well the Panamanian and Costa Rican leagues have been MLS pipeline teams for years now. I'm sure they wouldn't be so happy to sell their young players to MLS if there wasn't a guarantee they'd be compensated.

There is also a fairly high chance the US reaches a decision regarding youth payments by the time this would be an issue.

[ReedOnTheGrand]

1 minute ago, harrycoyster said:

Well the Panamanian and Costa Rican leagues have been MLS pipeline teams for years now. I'm sure they wouldn't be so happy to sell their young players to MLS if there wasn't a guarantee they'd be compensated.

There is also a fairly high chance the US reaches a decision regarding youth payments by the time this would be an issue.

They sell many players to the MLS but the league isn't set up to be a pipeline through it. The players that go to europe from there also tend to do so directly.

[Gordon]

17 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Well the Panamanian and Costa Rican leagues have been MLS pipeline teams for years now. I'm sure they wouldn't be so happy to sell their young players to MLS if there wasn't a guarantee they'd be compensated.

There is also a fairly high chance the US reaches a decision regarding youth payments by the time this would be an issue.

While I am sure that transfer market isn't 100% guaranteed to all encompassing, they show only 3 fee paying transfers from Costa Rica and Panama to MLS. The first recorded is 2004. I don't think MLS pays for players from these leagues. 

I also think it is absurd that this thread has become a pissing match about transfer from a yet to be created league and MLS. Isn't there somewhere else this could be discussed?

[harrycoyster]

10 minutes ago, Gordon said:

While I am sure that transfer market isn't 100% guaranteed to all encompassing, they show only 3 fee paying transfers from Costa Rica and Panama to MLS. The first recorded is 2004. I don't think MLS pays for players from these leagues. 

The vast majority of them are loans with options to buy. I believe there are three Panamanians on loan with options to buy in MLS that started this year alone. 

Edited August 11, 2017 by harrycoyster

[Gordon]

22 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

The vast majority of them are loans with options to buy. I believe there are three Panamanians on loan with options to buy in MLS that started this year alone. 

Rentals are a good strategy for a low revenue league, and beneficial to the player as MLS is certainly more visible than the Central American Leagues. 

[rob.notenboom]

3 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

It is up to the team receiving the transfer to insure the money for training compensation and solidarity payments is a part of the transfer. When MLS teams transfer in players from Argentina, the youth clubs get their money. The issue is that when an MLS club transfers out a player like DeAndre Yedlin or Brek Shea the MLS team keeps all the money.

While I think that is crazy, I don't exactly have a ton of sympathy for these youth teams that charge $3000 a year for kids to play in the USSDA then cry for training compensation. I guess it's a chicken and egg argument.

MLS does this because they believe, unlike virtually every other country and league in the world, that they are exempt from the FIFA statutes to this effect. This is because the USSF believes that any league under its jurisdiction is exempt from TC/SP and MLS uses this to avoid paying. CanPL, not being under USSF, clearly isn't in the same boat and I've been told they are seriously considering embracing TC & SP as the cost would likely be to their long term financial benefit. 

As for chicken & egg, watch clubs begin to get compensated and then be able to reduce their fees and offer a greater array of programs.