CPL General

[Rheo]

5 minutes ago, matty said:

Can we make references to new Japan?

Only if I can make Border City Wrestling references   They are bringing in Rey Mysterio and Ricky Steamboat next card lol

[Ansem]

16 minutes ago, ChrisinOrleans said:

Alright, so if D1 and D2 is the cut-off (if D3 is too low) then the available player pool from the province of Québec eligible to play in CanPL would be: 

Karl Ouimette, Maxim Tissot, Zakkaria Messoudi (Odds is Norwegian D1), Olivier Occéan, Patrice Bernier, Samuel Piette, David Chonière, Wandrille Lefèvre, Anthony Jackson-Hamel, Maxime Crépeau and Louis Béland-Goyette. Most of those are not going to leave IMFC, so that reduces the availability of a few. 

Those that are excluded are André Hainault (German D3), Jon Bealieu-Borgault (German D3 and PLSQ), Jérémy Gagnon-Laparé (French D3), Phillipe Davies (PLSQ after NASL), and Haidar Al-Shabani (French D4).

That seems like bizarre logic to me, given that three weeks ago Samuel Piette was in the Spanish 3rd division and on the national team, yet Wandoo hasn't played a game in months but would be given preference over Piette? Messoudi has played like 4 games for Odds BK in the Norwegian top flight, and would be given a shot in CanPL over Hainault - an experienced MNT veteran - because of a D1 status? 

Am I off base in this assumption?  

 

Not at all, they'll have no choice but to take D3 from some part of the world and here at home. D1-D2 seems to be what they wish for but the reality is that the more teams comes into the league, the more they will have to dig into D3 or pay a much higher salary to get players to come home. Paul Beirne had said in a podcast that every new expansion would be a "shock to the Canadian pool".

So you dig lower, or you pay up to get more of the Canadians oversea to join your league. Most likely, a bit of both.

Can't say I envy their predicament.

I'd like to think that a Quebec City team would prioritize Quebec/Francophone players

Edited August 10, 2017 by Ansem

[dyslexic nam]

14 minutes ago, ChrisinOrleans said:

Alright, so if D1 and D2 is the cut-off (if D3 is too low) then the available player pool from the province of Québec eligible to play in CanPL would be: 

Karl Ouimette, Maxim Tissot, Zakkaria Messoudi (Odds is Norwegian D1), Olivier Occéan, Patrice Bernier, Samuel Piette, David Chonière, Wandrille Lefèvre, Anthony Jackson-Hamel, Maxime Crépeau and Louis Béland-Goyette. Most of those are not going to leave IMFC, so that reduces the availability of a few. 

Those that are excluded are André Hainault (German D3), Jon Bealieu-Borgault (German D3 and PLSQ), Jérémy Gagnon-Laparé (French D3), Phillipe Davies (PLSQ after NASL), and Haidar Al-Shabani (French D4).

That seems like bizarre logic to me, given that three weeks ago Samuel Piette was in the Spanish 3rd division and on the national team, yet Wandoo hasn't played a game in months but would be given preference over Piette? Messoudi has played like 4 games for Odds BK in the Norwegian top flight, and would be given a shot in CanPL over Hainault - an experienced MNT veteran - because of a D1 status? 

Am I off base in this assumption?  

 

I don't think it can be as straightforward as D2 vs D3.  D2 where?  D3 in Spain will be higher than D2 USA (which includes USL).  And a player like Piette shows the danger of oversimplifying.  Two weeks ago he would be deemed ineligible but now would be a top recruit.  Still the same player... 

[harrycoyster]

2 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I don't think it can be as straightforward as D2 vs D3.  D2 where?  D3 in Spain will be higher than D2 USA (which includes USL).  And a player like Piette shows the danger of oversimplifying.  Two weeks ago he would be deemed ineligible but now would be a top recruit.  Still the same player... 

D3 in Spain isn't higher than USL/NASL across the board. There is a huge variance in quality in the Spanish third division. That's also oversimplifying. Miami FC signed one of the top scorers from the third division in Spain last year and he was terrible, he needed to be replaced by a player from the second division in Spain who is one of the better players in NASL, but not a top 3 player on Miami FC.

You can't really project individual players on the strength of leagues. 

[dyslexic nam]

5 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

D3 in Spain isn't higher than USL/NASL across the board. There is a huge variance in quality in the Spanish third division. That's also oversimplifying. Miami FC signed one of the top scorers from the third division in Spain last year and he was terrible, he needed to be replaced by a player from the second division in Spain who is one of the better players in NASL, but not a top 3 player on Miami FC.

You can't really project individual players on the strength of leagues. 

Fair enough, but I think the bolded portion still supports my point. 

[matty]

38 minutes ago, Rheo said:

Only if I can make Border City Wrestling references   They are bringing in Rey Mysterio and Ricky Steamboat next card lol

I always forget bcw. Man....dazn should get some Canadian wrestling on it like smash or iws

[ChrisinOrleans]

29 minutes ago, Ansem said:

So you dig lower, or you pay up to get more of the Canadians oversea to join your league. Most likely, a bit of both.

Can't say I envy their predicament.

I'd like to think that a Quebec City team would prioritize Quebec/Francophone players

This is going to absolutely kill expansion teams to the CanPL. Ultimately, if Québec City does get a team, and wants to recruit local talent, they're going to either wind up with massive salary hits in transfer fees, or a whole whack of PLSQ talent that is not going to fill their stadium (Or as you say - both). You're right - that is a brutal position. 

29 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I don't think it can be as straightforward as D2 vs D3.  D2 where?  D3 in Spain will be higher than D2 USA (which includes USL).  And a player like Piette shows the danger of oversimplifying.  Two weeks ago he would be deemed ineligible but now would be a top recruit.  Still the same player... 

Agreed 100%. Piette is one example. Hainault is another. The guy is a starter on our MNT (or was), but is in the German D3. Gagnon-Laparé is easily good enough to start in CanPL, but plays in the French D3. Ultimately, their individual skill and value to a club should determine their worth, not an arbitrary designation by an officiating body. 

[Rheo]

9 minutes ago, matty said:

I always forget bcw. Man....dazn should get some Canadian wrestling on it like smash or iws

I haven't been in a long time but they always have good line ups.  Should be a ton of GFW/TNA guys there with Scott D'Amore being so heavily involved.  Looking forward to it.

[matty]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

Spoilers****

Kurt Larson points out that CPL must avoid becoming the league who accepts MLS players who were cut.

My wrestling analogy to this, don't be the TNA to WWE...Be ROH (Ring of Honor) or Old ECW (with better management)

agree in the long term but feel for a few years it'll be excused. But yea it should be phased out asap.

And hey....tna had two groundbreaking divisions with the x division and the knockouts and gave us some great talent

[Bison44]

Is this re-animated Ricky Steamboat, Steamboat Jr etc, or is that guy still alive?  

[Rheo]

Just now, Bison44 said:

Is this re-animated Ricky Steamboat, Steamboat Jr etc, or is that guy still alive?  

Hall of Famer Steamboat lol.  He's not wrestling, just signing and pictures and probably either guest ref or GM type spot with promo I assume.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Kurt Larson isn't making sense if that is really what he was arguing. Players like Mo Babouli and Qullian Roberts are exactly who need to be signed by a new domestic pro league, if it is going to add depth to the CMNT player pool in the way that has been argued for.

[Ansem]

9 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Kurt Larson isn't making sense if that is really what he was arguing. Players like Mo Babouli and Qullian Roberts are exactly who need to be signed by a new domestic pro league, if it is going to add depth to the CMNT player pool in the way that has been argued for.

I agree with you. At launch there's really no choice.

However, down the road, once the pool expands and the CPL runs it's academies, I see the logic in avoiding MLS cuts. You want to create your own stars and be your own thing, not feed on the leftovers (don't mean to offend anyone).

[Complete Homer]

11 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Kurt Larson isn't making sense if that is really what he was arguing. Players like Mo Babouli and Qullian Roberts are exactly who need to be signed by a new domestic pro league, if it is going to add depth to the CMNT player pool in the way that has been argued for.

I think there's some nuance here. There's a difference between being a league that is nothing more than being a backup option and a league that is a legitimate league in its own right that develops players but can also look at USL/MLS tweeners as good additions to a roster

At first it will obviously rely on the tweeners, but I think the point is that the league has to stand and develop on its own in time instead of relying on kids cut from WC/TFC II and III 

[youllneverwalkalone]

Every squad needs 15-20 players before you get into the first 11. My hope would be 3-4 players per side who are legitimately in the CMNT pool, mixed with 7-8 international players. All the other guys should be youth + cheap domestics. The success of the league will be when those in the latter category start pushing into the top 11 and, thus, the CMNT pool.

[Rheo]

The league is to grow and foster Canadian players.  I can't see them passing up on viable domestic players at any point in their existence no matter their lineage/developmental path in my opinion (and mine only)  Also just putting it out there.  I don't want or need to get into another board war with those who disagree lol

[Big_M]

Gagnon-Lapare plays in d4

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

51 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Kurt Larson isn't making sense

Wow, there's a shocker. 

[dyslexic nam]

19 minutes ago, Rheo said:

The league is to grow and foster Canadian players.  I can't see them passing up on viable domestic players at any point in their existence no matter their lineage/developmental path in my opinion (and mine only)  Also just putting it out there.  I don't want or need to get into another board war with those who disagree lol

I agree.  Using my example of a player like Bekker, I can't see CPL being in a position to ignore a guy like that for a long, long time.  Developmental league or not, there are (and will continue to be) a limited number of guys who are capable of playing pro footy and who want to play in North America rather than pursue the Euro dream.  No way a good club manager/owner ignores a large portion of that player pool simply because they are surplus in MLS.

[Bison44]

I agree, who cares if they once played in MLS.  MLS brass arent exaclty whiz kids that never miss on kids, or misjudge talents etc.  I think the average fan can see a former MLS guy getting a second chance in a more favorable setting (canada/CPL)and will revel in his success.  The league should be about growing and fostering CDN talent and if that means giving former MLS players/Academy kids legit chances to excel for the first few years so be it.  I dont think the international players coming in will be at MLS levels given the wage numbers that are being thrown around either.  

[Rheo]

My last bit on this subject before it explodes.  People can't have their cake and eat it too.  People can't expect the league to have an elevated expected level of play (as has often been suggested here) that is needed to engage fans, while at the same time denying domestic players a chance because because their developmental pathway may make the league appear weak (which is being suggested)  Bottom line is a Canadian league for Canadian players.  I know the wait is agonizing and leads to this but it's really being over thought lol.  Going into hiding now.

[ReedOnTheGrand]

3 hours ago, Ansem said:

Spoilers****

Kurt Larson points out that CPL must avoid becoming the league who accepts MLS players who were cut.

My wrestling analogy to this, don't be the TNA to WWE...Be ROH (Ring of Honor) or Old ECW (with better management)

Kurt is wrong if those players are Canadian, that's what CPL is for, giving Canadians a chance. It's going to be below MLS level so those types of players would be good for 2 reasons.

 

1. Having made a MLS roster at some point they've shown some talent and will be low risk for a CPL team

 

2. Since they were on MLS rosters more people will know about them and it could generate some buzz.

 

For example imagine Ashton Morgan is cut from TFC, he would be a very good player for the league and Canadian soccer fans would also know him from his time with Canada and TFC so he would be good for marketing. 

[Ansem]

We shouldn't discriminate against our own. If they are good enough, they should play in CPL regardless of where they came from.

I'll add something to that. CPL needs to be serious at making academies and developing their own stars at the same time. The trap is to sit down and wait for MLS to do the development for them and just wait for those guys to have to come to CPL.

Perhaps that's what Larson meant to say

Edited August 10, 2017 by Ansem

[harrycoyster]

3 minutes ago, Rheo said:

My last bit on this subject before it explodes.  People can't have their cake and eat it too.

It's just the unbridled optimism of a new league. Nobody has reality to get jaded about yet. The guy who wants to see the CPL be primarily a league for Canadians to develop and the guy who wants an MLS competitor are still signing kumbaya together because neither's dreams have been crushed yet. The league is everything for everyone right now. 

[Rheo]

I haven't heard Kurt's pod yet but really curious to hear the whole talk between the two for context.  I know Larson's not a lot of people's cup of tea but I'm interested to hear his take in general.  Gives me some different things to think about when it comes to the CPL.  It's like Footy Soldiers.  I don't agree with a lot of what they think but I do like their different perspective.