CPL General

[Ansem]

3 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

There have been rumors that MLS2 teams will eventually be moved to the USL D3, but those plans are many years away even if true. The truth is, the USL has been decent for development recently and there is no reason for a team to move their better prospects into a league that is a complete question mark until the level of play is above USL and the league is stable.

The MLS to CPL loan scenario implies that CPL would be higher. 

If not, there's tons of examples around the world of players being loaned to less competitive leagues. Liga --> Ligue 1 and vice-versa. 

Also, that's another way to have more of your players in your organization to get some minutes to take a better look at them.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Ansem

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

15 hours ago, matty said:

...Also CPL should loan players to MLS if needed

You are pushing that scenario even when the sales pitch that has been made in recent weeks is for teams in markets of 200k+ with scope for multiple teams in major metropolitan areas?

[Ansem]

3 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

You are pushing that scenario even when the sales pitch that has been made in recent weeks is for teams in markets of 200k+ with scope for multiple teams in major metropolitan areas?

What's wrong with that?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

It's a good overall vision, in my opinion, and probably the only way that it is ever likely to work. The budgets involved make it unlikely, however, that players would be loaned to MLS under that scenario as they are an order of magnitude smaller than those of MLS.

Edited August 9, 2017 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[Ansem]

6 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

It's a good overall vision, in my opinion, and probably the only way that it is ever likely to work. The budgets involved make it unlikely, however, that players would be loaned to MLS under that scenario as they are an order of magnitude smaller than those of MLS.

Hypothetically, of course, a Alphonso Davies emerges, CPL would most likely keep him and not loan him at all, while an MLS team is unlikely to rent a player who can't make the first squad. Is that what you mean?

[Rheo]

Wouldn't the CPL be selling players to MLS and not loaning given the probable difference in level of play?

[Ansem]

34 minutes ago, Rheo said:

Wouldn't the CPL be selling players to MLS and not loaning given the probable difference in level of play?

CPL is unlikely to sell for cheap to MLS.

There's also the optics of becoming a "feeder" to MLS which so far the league seems determined to avoid. However, selling players to Europe would increase the league's reputation, far more than selling to MLS.

Ex:

1. A Jordan Hamilton to MLS (offers 500k)
2. A Jordan Hamilton to Ligue 2 France (offers 200K)
3. Or CPL keep that player to stay competitive

Which option is more likely to be chosen?

3-2-1

• They stay competitive by keeping the striker (Also good for marketing to showcase a local player as your top striker)
• They get some kind of "prestige" which can be used as a selling point to "casuals/non-fans that CPL is developing talents which Europe are interested to acquire by selling to France
• Selling to MLS doesn't do anything for their reputation/prestige. It further opens the door to be branded as "MLS/TFC" personal farm, which is something Bill Manning heavily implied in his interview regarding CPL. Make no mistake about it, jabs will thrown at CPL every time thy buy a player by saying "CPL is a good developmental league". (That's what I would do)

So option 3 and 2 have more upsides in the long term than option 1, which is to sell to MLS unless it's a huge amount of money. Which CPL can spin by saying the high amount of $$$ is proportional to the quality of the player, by default, the league itself.

Due to geographic and exceptional circumstances (Canadian clubs in MLS, V Cup teams from both leagues), I can't see CPL selling their top talents to MLS unless the league is willing to overpay for them which would allow CPL clubs to replace them with equal or better talents.

• example above: MLS via TFC would have to double or more their offer so CPL team could use the money to buy a better player than a Hamilton like a Cavallini.

MLS Canadian clubs would be the most likely buyers as American clubs are less likely to use an international spot for a Canadian unless it's a Larin, Johnson, Akindele...Unless players from CPL academies counts in the homegrown program (another topic since my understanding is that the CSA could identify who's eligible to that as well...correct me if I'm wrong)

PS: It's not that "I know it all", but from a business perspective, you don't boost your competitors unless they make it worth your while.

The V Cup will be much more important for both leagues than we realize. I expect MLS clubs wanting to make the statement that they are not only the top league (which I don't dispute), but they will want to demonstrate that CPL isn't close to be in their league, that they are superior, by a mile. For CPL, they have to demonstrate to fans that the level of play is much closer and they are much more competitive that people realize (especially to casual fans and non-fans)

I expect CPL to not win the tournament for a while, but it's how you lose/win that will open eyes. From that logic, it isn't in CPL interest to sell their top talents to MLS (Mostly Canadian clubs in direct competition to them) without a significant return that won't result in a weaker team and open themselves to bad "publicity from media and MLS" by being branded as a feeder league

Hope I'm making sense

Edited August 9, 2017 by Ansem

[Kent]

19 hours ago, Initial B said:

I don't see that happening because the size of the populations are just too small. I could see Alberta/Saskatchewan/Manitoba forming a D3 league, but I imagine Maritime teams will simply join the PLSQ as an Atlantic Conference.

I'm not sure how the financials work for L1O and PLSQ teams, but it doesn't seem like population is much of a factor. Outside of a couple of teams like FC London, most teams only draw friends and family to their games. Small towns could draw 20 or 30 people to games.

I guess population could be a factor in other ways. Like the size of a club including all of their youth players, etc. Maybe the youth teams prop up the top club. Does anyone have any info on how much cost, revenue, etc L1O or PLSQ clubs have? Where does their revenue come from?

[Kent]

9 hours ago, Ansem said:

1. A Jordan Hamilton to MLS (offers 500k)
2. A Jordan Hamilton to Ligue 2 France (offers 200K)
3. Or CPL keep that player to stay competitive

Which option is more likely to be chosen?

I trimmed your post for brevity. I understand your point, but I think you are over-estimating the spite/competitive one-upsmanship that CPL teams are likely to have. The numbers in your example seem like a significant amount from MLS. They are offering 2.5 times what France are offering, and you think they can just turn that down? A lot would depend on the financial stability of the club that would be selling. If we are still assuming 1.5 million for player salaries for a team, that is one third of the salary for your whole team you would be turning down. Put another way, if you have 5,000 fans per game at $20 per ticket, that's 5 home games worth of ticket sales for selling on a player.

I am totally in the "no farm teams in CPL" camp, but I think we have to be open to the possibility of players being sold (or yes, loaned) to MLS or any league. Every player's situation is different and every clubs needs are different.

I do agree with you that the Voyageurs Cup is hugely important. It's huge for everyone involved. Huge for D3 teams and CPL teams as a measuring stick, which if they perform favourably, could help draw more interest to the team. Huge for MLS teams (and hopefully CPL not too far off in the future) for gaining CCL involvement as a larger scope measuring stick, and hopefully just as added revenue (not sure how much money it's worth MLS teams at this moment. I presume it's a money maker for the teams that draw good attendance for these games)

Edited August 10, 2017 by Kent

[Ansem]

8 minutes ago, Kent said:

I'm not sure how the financials work for L1O and PLSQ teams, but it doesn't seem like population is much of a factor. Outside of a couple of teams like FC London, most teams only draw friends and family to their games. Small towns could draw 20 or 30 people to games.

I guess population could be a factor in other ways. Like the size of a club including all of their youth players, etc. Maybe the youth teams prop up the top club. Does anyone have any info on how much cost, revenue, etc L1O or PLSQ clubs have? Where does their revenue come from?

Operating a D3 club can't be more expansive than Junior hockey. Your biggest cost is staff, facility (a fraction of an arena) and travel. Like Junior hockey, players are paid peanuts...so it's up to D3 owners to draw enough to break even which is totally doable in a small town

[matty]

54 minutes ago, Rheo said:

Wouldn't the CPL be selling players to MLS and not loaning given the probable difference in level of play?

I see Mark Bloom type things happening

[Ansem]

3 minutes ago, Kent said:

I trimmed your post for brevity. I understand your point, but I think you are over-estimating the spite/competitive one-upsmanship that CPL teams are likely to have. The numbers in your example seem like a significant amount from MLS. They are offering 2.5 times what France are offering, and you think they can just turn that down? A lot would depend on the financial stability of the club that would be selling. If we are still assuming 1.5 million for player salaries for a team, that is one third of the salary for your whole team you would be turning down. Put another way, if you have 5,000 fans per game at $20 per ticket, that's 5 home games worth of ticket sales for selling on a player.

I am totally in the "no farm teams in CPL" camp, but I think we have to be open to the possibility of players being sold (or yes, loaned) to MLS or any league. Every player's situation is different and every clubs needs are different.

I do agree with you that the Voyageurs Cup is hugely important. It's huge for everyone involved. Huge for D3 teams and CPL teams as a measuring stick, which if they perform favourably, could help draw more interest to the team. Huge for MLS teams (and hopefully not too far off in the future) for gaining CCL involvement as a larger scope measuring stick, and hopefully just as added revenue (not sure how much money it's worth MLS teams at this moment. I presume it's a money maker for the teams that draw good attendance for these games)

Sorry for my estimations as I have no clue what a good CPL player would be worth. I'm certainly not talking about year 1 but more about year 10+ as it took MLS significant years to be able to sell to other leagues, CPL won't be different.

So maybe my example was bad. If the amount is similar, they would be wise to sell to Europe ahead of MLS but if MLS doubles the amount, sell to MLS and use the cash to buy an equal player in quality or better

[Rheo]

I don't recall anyone saying anything about selling players for cheap to MLS or any other league..  I just don't see the CPL holding back the development of Canadian players (a stated key motive for the league and general principal worldwide in soccer)   I would assume that the founders of the league believe in their product and would see the graduation of players to higher levels as an indication that they are doing things right.

[harrycoyster]

8 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I'm certainly not talking about year 1 but more about year 10+ as it took MLS significant years to be able to sell to other leagues, CPL won't be different.

Tim Howard, Brad Friedel, Brian McBride and Eddie Lewis were all transferred to the EPL within 8 years of the start of MLS. And there was a good amount of transfers to the Championship in the first ten years before the American player base started moving from England to Germany.

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, Rheo said:

I don't recall anyone saying anything about selling players for cheap to MLS or any other league..  I just don't see the CPL holding back the development of Canadian players (a stated key motive for the league and general principal worldwide in soccer)   I would assume that the founders of the league believe in their product and would see the graduation of players to higher levels as an indication that they are doing things right.

I agree, but CPL will never acknowledge MLS as "higher" (even if we all know that it's the case). They can't really if they hope to attract casuals or people that aren't fans of MLS nor watch it.

It's logical for them to approach transactions with MLS very differently than the rest. We're talking about a league that wants to penetrate existing MLS markets down the road.

[harrycoyster]

5 minutes ago, Rheo said:

I don't recall anyone saying anything about selling players for cheap to MLS or any other league..  I just don't see the CPL holding back the development of Canadian players (a stated key motive for the league and general principal worldwide in soccer)   I would assume that the founders of the league believe in their product and would see the graduation of players to higher levels as an indication that they are doing things right.

The whole CPL stems from the need for more Canadians in MLS. If the CPL has a Canadian player of starting quality in MLS, we should want him to move to MLS or whichever better league is bidding for him. The CPL isn't a charity, they should accept the highest bid and reinvest.

Edited August 9, 2017 by harrycoyster

[Ansem]

2 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Tim Howard, Brad Friedel, Brian McBride and Eddie Lewis were all transferred to the EPL within 8 years of the start of MLS. And there was a good amount of transfers to the Championship in the first ten years before the American player base started moving from England to Germany.

And L10 players gets signs to Europe as well, I don't see CPL being any different, granted that Europe TOP league are perhaps within a decade from now

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, harrycoyster said:

The whole CPL stems from the need for more Canadians in MLS. If the CPL has a Canadian player of starting quality in MLS, we should want him to move to MLS or whichever better league is bidding for him. The CPL isn't a charity, they should accept the highest bid and reinvest.

Due to "special circumstances", MLS and CPL are direct competitors. Expect their approach to MLS to be different/handle with more care. If there was no Canadian clubs in MLS, you'd be 100% right but that's not the case

[harrycoyster]

10 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Due to "special circumstances", MLS and CPL are direct competitors. Expect their approach to MLS to be different/handle with more care. If there was no Canadian clubs in MLS, you'd be 100% right but that's not the case

Not sure what you mean. Are you saying that you expect the CPL to blackball MLS because of some inherent need to be seen as equal competition? I'm not buying that. Even the more casual soccer fans will quickly become aware of the gap between to two leagues. You do what's right by the player. MLS has repeatedly sold to its biggest competition in Liga MX, I don't see how this is much different. 

Edited August 9, 2017 by harrycoyster

[-Hammer-]

1 hour ago, Rheo said:

Wouldn't the CPL be selling players to MLS and not loaning given the probable difference in level of play?

Sure, and I think we all accept it will happen at some point. However, in the end such a sale is generally a net benefit. They sell for what they feel the player is worth to them, which allows them to invest back into their brand which can lead to them getting their hooks into more talent, or marketing their team more and making the marketplace larger and more competitive and expanding the presence of the game.

Loaning would be more likely done by MLS to the CPL. As stated before, minutes playing on a pro team are generally more beneficial then reserve squad/league play as it can allow the salary to be shared (which may been even more important in a league with a cap), it allows a club to retain rights to a player who may be in limbo with the team for various reasons and can operate as a bridge for players not quite good enough for the big club, but have outgrown the reserve squad, getting them a bigger payday if the loan weights more on the club receiving the player.

Edited August 9, 2017 by -Hammer-

[Ansem]

28 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Not sure what you mean.

It's a competition. Despite this being sports, sports is very much a business and same rules applies when you're competing for the same customers. Bill Manning said as much with his "pizza/restaurant" example

28 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Are you saying that you expect the CPL to blackball MLS because of some inherent need to be seen as equal competition?

There's no "blackmail". You accept or refuse an offer...that simple

28 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

I'm not buying that.

ok

28 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Even the more casual soccer fans will quickly become aware of the gap between to two leagues

My dad is a casual...borderline non-MLS fans. He lived in France and came to Canada in 81. He knows his football. I tell him about CPL and for him, MLS and CPL is more of the same despite having Montreal Impact being a 30 minute drive from our home. He will notice the gap but he's more incline to support CPL due to local content and the hope that it helps the national team. For him, there's Europe, southern Hemisphere and the rest, which he's not a fan of the style of play. MLS and CPL both belongs to "the rest". Casuals aren't likely to get that specific about who's ahead of who, fans are, but not casuals...even less non-fans.

You and I know better because we're fans of North American football and we know what's going on and we're here debating but casual fans will most likely think it's more of the same while non-fans aren't watching MLS to begin with and might adopt CPL if they do a good marketing job. Selling all your top talents to MLS like Monaco does year after year quickly brands you as subpar... hence Ligue 1 not being taken seriously outside off PSG. If CPL is serious about "projecting themselves" as a top league in CONCACAF , their approach to MLS must be dealt with the outmost caution.

28 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

You do what's right by the player.

LMAO!!! That's why Tabla is still in Montreal? Larin still in Orlando? C'mon, be serious. It's a business and teams do what's in their club interest first and foremost

28 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

MLS has repeatedly sold to its biggest competition in Liga MX, I don't see how this is much different. 

There's no Liga MX clubs in NYC, LA and Chicago competing for the same fans.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Ansem

[-Hammer-]

1 hour ago, harrycoyster said:

The whole CPL stems from the need for more Canadians in MLS. If the CPL has a Canadian player of starting quality in MLS, we should want him to move to MLS or whichever better league is bidding for him. The CPL isn't a charity, they should accept the highest bid and reinvest.

The first point is wrong, the whole CPL stems from the need for a deeper talent pool for our national team and to grow the game as a whole in our country. MLS doesn't have a real need for Canadian players specifically, which is why we are having the issue with a shallow talent pool. That said, with the new import rules, MLS now has a slightly better domestic pool to draw from and now can actually consider Canadian talent an option to meet domestic requirements. Regrettably though, this doesn't help the CPL because MLS won't simply make their new domestic rule to include all Canadians, forcing Canadian players to chose a CPL or MLS career path.

As far as not being a charity, I don't disagree for the most part, except at some point you will reach the point where selling one of your more prominent players hurts the marketing and optics of the club more then then the capital you are getting back. A short-term infusion of capital at the potential cost of long-term brand damage. It's not just accept the highest bid, it's accept option (bid or otherwsie) that benefits the club most. This is especially true when you can shop the player to other clubs. That said, you are mostly right on this one. There are clubs whose primary source of revenue is selling players, and the CPL clubs should be not be afraid to use that as a revenue stream.

Edited August 9, 2017 by -Hammer-

[BenFisk'sBiggestFan]

I thought clubs usually kept their best players for themselves and then loaned out the players who aren't getting much playing time? Players that have great potential, but aren't there yet. The whole purpose of a loan is to get a player more playing time to develop, while still keeping the rights to them so you can use them later. It also lowers the cost as clubs usually split the costs.

The only way I could see the CPL loaning to MLS is if the CPL is better than the MLS. Since the CPL will be a lower level then the MLS the only players that could get loaned out would be the best ones on a CPL team. Why would a CPL team keep paying for their top player but not get to play them? It makes no sense. 

MLS could loan to the CPL. Look at Ben Mckendry. He is with FC Edmonton. Now of course he would be getting the same amount of playing time with Vancouver's USL team. But Edmonton is most likely paying a lot of money to get him. So the Whitecaps loan him out because he will develop more, and they don't have to pay as much for it. Later, if he develops to a high enough level, the Whitecaps can play him on their own team as either a starter or a sub because they still have his rights. If the Whitecaps thought they couldn't use him, they would have sold him to Edmonton.

That is why it is unrealistic for any CPL team to loan a player to the MLS. Not until the CPL is better then the MLS. Which it won't be for at least 50 years or maybe never.

Edited August 9, 2017 by BenFisk'sBiggestFan

[matty]

1 hour ago, BenFisk'sBiggestFan said:

The only way I could see the CPL loaning to MLS is if the CPL is better than the MLS. Since the CPL will be a lower level then the MLS the only players that could get loaned out would be the best ones on a CPL team. Why would a CPL team keep paying for their top player but not get to play them? It makes no sense. 

Mark Bloom, John Smits. While rare we have seen NASL/USL loans to MLS before. They usually happen with buying in mind

Edited August 9, 2017 by matty

[matty]

Also for the record, the following leagues (which are all weaker than MLS) have loaned players to MLS since 2013
-NASL
-TT Pro League (Trinidad and Tobago)
-USL (independents) 
-Liga FPD (Costa Rica)
-Liga Panameña de Fútbol (Panama)
-Red Stripe Premier League (Jamaica)

Again this is rare and is mostly done to check out players but it does happen (at least once a season).

Loans and sales between the two league should happen and anyone who thinks otherwise is a dork

Edited August 9, 2017 by matty