CPL General

[MtlMario]

When the CFL had teams in the US all their players(US teams) were American because IIRC we (CFL) couldn't force teams in another country to use  CDN players. It probably would be the same for US based teams in the CPL.

[Ansem]

3 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Because you would never see the Western Hockey League and Ontario Hockey League doing something like that?

Why does soccer have to be hardcore nationalist in its approach to the border when hockey which we are always told in commercial after commercial defines Canadian identity isn't? As for your point about the USSF, they never seemed to have an issue with the BC based Pacific Coast Soccer League spanning the border and going further back Detroit and Buffalo teams occasionally played in the NSL back in the 70s and early 80s, an era when that league could sometimes draw 5000+ to some of the games:

http://www.rsssf.com/usadave/cnsl.html

{Edit: this link provides an example of a Canadian pro soccer league (teams were really semi-pro in most cases) using pro/rel although it didn't last very long}

I'm well aware of American teams in Junior hockey but at least most of them in the WHL started as Canadian teams then got moved to the US. American teams that have been founded as US teams have done so recently. 

There's a massive difference between looking south of the border AFTER occupying cities that wants junior hockey and should have it than talking US cities BEFORE the league even starts, that's truly a bad approach...

We did that for the NHL, and we ended up losing our league to the US, how did the US expansion worked for the CFL by putting teams ahead of other Canadian markets?

What Junior hockey is doing is sound, let's take care of all our markets willing and able to have a team and AFTER,  sure look at the US if they are willing to play by OUR rules....Good luck with that one

Edited August 7, 2017 by Ansem

[Gordon]

48 minutes ago, MtlMario said:

When the CFL had teams in the US all their players(US teams) were American because IIRC we (CFL) couldn't force teams in another country to use  CDN players. It probably would be the same for US based teams in the CPL.

Honestly, I think that if anyone stopped to think through the whole idea, it would be obvious that the obstacles, hassles and risks inherent far outweigh whatever benefits a US based team, even one as strong as DCFC is reported to be, would bring. You've identified a big one, and I am sure could list several more if you were so inclined. 

[-Hammer-]

Considering that the USSF would need to give approval for a US based team to play in the CPL, and would likely impose their own domestic player restrictions (which would undoubtedly be far more then MLS's slightly better then paltry requirements) that only makes a US team a dealbreaker.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Found this tweet from a poster on here quite interesting:

The new D3 leagues that are about to be launched south of the border seem to have similar budgets in mind to CPL (judging by the break even crowds and ticket prices mentioned by Paul Beirne) and seem to be going after similar sized sized metro areas (i.e. mainly 250 to 750k).

[Alex D]

It's curious to see how high a percentage of a clubs overall budget player salaries are expected to be in USL 3. Will they be run as professional off the field as they are on?

[Kent]

A team in Detroit could have positives and negatives. The positives would be that it's one more team, and when we aren't sure about whether the league will survive or not, that is an important thing. If they are a stable club, that could make the difference between holding on through some rough years, and folding the league.

On the negative side of things, there is the domestic player rules that have been brought up. Likely we wouldn't be able to force them to sign Canadians. So we possibly wouldn't get much out of them in terms of player development. However that seems like just a lack of a positive rather than a negative, except when you dig a bit deeper. This might not mean much to some, but I would find it disheartening if their American domestic rules gave them an advantage. The Baltimore Stallions spent 2 years in the CFL, got to the Grey Cup final in their expansion season, and then won it the following year. If Detroit were to be a powerhouse in the league, that would be tough to take. One of the little things that I think is a nice positive about an all Canadian league is that every year a Canadian city can be inspired by a team of champions. In the cross border leagues we haven't won a championship in almost 24 years.

At this point I am neither fully supportive or fully against the idea of an American team in CPL. I know it's protectionist, but I think I am leaning towards no American teams. I am guessing this is all a moot discussion because I doubt there will be a ton of interest from American teams, but I guess you never know.

[rob.notenboom]

30 minutes ago, Kent said:

... guessing this is all a moot discussion because there will be no interest from CanPL teams.

fyp

[ted]

On 8/7/2017 at 5:45 AM, MtlMario said:

When the CFL had teams in the US all their players(US teams) were American ...

Wait, what?!?! There are Canadians playing in the CFL? I thought the CFL was the NFL reserves?

[-Hammer-]

36 minutes ago, ted said:

Wait, what?!?! There are Canadians playing in the CFL? I thought the CFL was the NFL reserves?

Yeah, it was a dark time for the league back then, because the import rule specifically required a foreign player quota it ran afoul US labor law. Back then, the talent gap was even more pronounced. It's another reason it irks me when complains that the CFL fields Canadians, like it's normal to sell out your country's local league to the highest bidder for talent.

Thankfully the talent gap between the US and Canada closes slightly more every passing year, mainly due to the increasing prominence and efforts of a select few CIS programs and the growing popularity of the game in Quebec. It's still nowhere near the level of the US though. It's like comparing the US to Brazil in terms of soccer talent. Better, but a long long road.

However, back to CPL discussion, I think it's a complete non-starter. The USSF isn't going to approve of any of their teams playing in a Canadian league and the CSA isn't going to let rogue teams in either, and if somehow they did, I don't want to see franchises dance around the Canadian domestic requirements because they are in the US (for the same reason it didn't work in the CFL. The US talent pool is far larger then ours and can potentially weight the league towards a US team) or to open up the league to "Domestics can be Canadian or American" because then it defeats the purpose of the league. There's already going to be enough of an import presence on the rosters, I'd rather it be kept to a minimum.

Edited August 8, 2017 by -Hammer-

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

This story about the Calgary Foothills suggests that they see their role as being to provide support for a CPL franchise rather than being the CPL franchise:

http://www.totalsoccerproject.com/2017/08/foothills-fc-field-house-canadian-premier-league/

“If a Canadian Premier League team does come to Calgary, we’re ready with an infrastructure to support it,” said Wheeldon, who also serves as Calgary Foothills Soccer Club‘s technical director. “I think the guiding principal (of the Canadian Premier League) is to provide more opportunities for Canadian players.”

[Ansem]

Alberta needs a D3 league already. The youth system is strong in that province

[Rheo]

Unfortunately the demand on this board for D3 in places it doesn't exist exceeds the supply of people with money willing to invest in it.  

[matty]

4 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Alberta needs a D3 league already. The youth system is strong in that province

D3s in Ontario, Quebec, BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan/Manitboa, Atlantic Canada all feeding into CPL, what a wonderful system that would be

[matty]

Just now, Rheo said:

Unfortunately the demand on this board for D3 in places it doesn't exist exceeds the supply of people with money willing to invest in it.  

Hopefully with CPL that demand will be there even if just a group of joint D3s like BC/Alberta

[Rheo]

7 minutes ago, matty said:

Hopefully with CPL that demand will be there even if just a group of joint D3s like BC/Alberta

Oh I agree I just find it funny how it seems like there's an infinite amount of money to fund all our soccer dreams.  Stupid real world lol

[harrycoyster]

3 minutes ago, Rheo said:

Oh I agree I just find it funny how it seems like there's an infinite amount of money to fund all our soccer dreams.  Stupid real world lol

I'm down for an Ocean's Eleven style raid of the USSF vault. 

[Rheo]

16 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

I'm down for an Ocean's Eleven style raid of the USSF vault. 

Maybe Soderbergh will make the movie version of it, a hoser rendition of Oceans or his new redneck one Logan Lucky (which looks really fun)

[matty]

19 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

I'm down for an Ocean's Eleven style raid of the USSF vault. 

not enough money. let's rob pornhub

[Initial B]

49 minutes ago, matty said:

D3s in Ontario, Quebec, BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan/Manitboa, Atlantic Canada all feeding into CPL, what a wonderful system that would be

I don't see that happening because the size of the populations are just too small. I could see Alberta/Saskatchewan/Manitoba forming a D3 league, but I imagine Maritime teams will simply join the PLSQ as an Atlantic Conference.

As for CPL/MLS affiliation debate, why not simply do what the rest of the world does and have CPL teams acquire players on loan from MLS clubs, with an option to buy? Nobody else considers that an affiliation, do they?

Edit: And I'm okay with a limit of at least 50% of a team roster must be Canadian Players. Whether they start or not, they still have to practice with the starting 11 and will improve over time. I think most casual fans would be happy to cheer on the one Canadian starter as well as the rest of the internationals on their team, so long as the play is entertaining, fluid soccer (and their team is winning a lot).

Edited August 8, 2017 by Initial B

[matty]

2 minutes ago, Initial B said:

As for CPL/MLS affiliation debate, why not simply do what the rest of the world does and have CPL teams acquire players on loan from MLS clubs, with an option to buy? Nobody else considers that an affiliation, do they?

Yea this is how things should go. Also CPL should loan players to MLS if needed

[harrycoyster]

1 hour ago, Initial B said:

As for CPL/MLS affiliation debate, why not simply do what the rest of the world does and have CPL teams acquire players on loan from MLS clubs, with an option to buy? Nobody else considers that an affiliation, do they?

Why would MLS teams loan players to the CPL when almost all have a USL team/USL affiliate? I'm sure it will happen, but not in large numbers until the CPL establishes itself as a better league than NASL/USL.

[-Hammer-]

2 hours ago, Initial B said:

As for CPL/MLS affiliation debate, why not simply do what the rest of the world does and have CPL teams acquire players on loan from MLS clubs, with an option to buy? Nobody else considers that an affiliation, do they?

Pretty much, the problem with affiliation here is that loans can happen from whoever from wherever, affiliation implies a two way street and the beginnings of a farm. A loan means the parent lends the player to another club and usually they share costs. To whoever, where ever. It's a single transaction that carries no weight by either club. No club holds an excessive amount of sway over the other, or how the club uses that player.

An affiliation however tends to imply the beginnings of a farm relationship. Not only am I going to loan players to you, but I'm going to to a degree dictate the systems I want you guys to run with (so if a player moves up, they know what to expect) and you aren't going to sell your players to other clubs, or will talk to us first before selling and I'll parachute money down to you from time to time for it. The hooks aren't quite all the way in, but to think the larger affiliate doesn't have some degree of influence is mistaken. That said, there is no true measure about just how little or how much sway an affiliate will hold. Certainly when it gets to a degree where the identity of the team is nothing more then an extension of the bigger club (See Windsor TFC) it becomes more like a farm, but where there is a very arms length approach (See the Ottawa Fury, where it's easy to forget they are an Impact "affiliate") it's more palatable.

The problem is that defeats part of the purpose of the CPL. It's not just to develop Canadian talent, it's to develop the game in Canada. It's so that several independent owners, can not only grow our national team, but to foster civic pride in teams across our nation and not just be part of a funnel that leads to one of three places in our rather large country. To make owning a team an attractive endevour for a local business presence that doesn't have a 100 million dollar check to write and to give our Soccer Canada more sway, management and backbone to expand the game even further.

Edited August 8, 2017 by -Hammer-

[-Hammer-]

55 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Why would MLS teams loan players to the CPL when almost all have a USL team/USL affiliate? I'm sure it will happen, but not in large numbers until the CPL establishes itself as a better league than NASL/USL.

For the same reason any player gets loaned and not put on a reserve squad. Minutes in competitive play are simply worth more then minutes on a reserve side, which is predominantly younger domestic players. Having a veteran ringer can also hamper your reserve squad's development. That and loaning players out to other teams allows them to share the money burden of veteran contract obligations without simply cutting the player loose.

Although this is incredibly early speculation and I think I've only seen two articles to that effect, so I doubt it's much of a risk, I'm to understand the USL is talking about kicking the MLS farms out of the league. It's because they realize the MLS farms are not only dragging down their attendance averages, but that the MLS teams aren't putting the same level of investment into their player rosters.

This is because they literally can't due to their nature (as is the norm for most reserve clubs). They are farms, and there is no sense to farm and pay foreign talent when it's readily available on the open market (unless you've managed to get your hook onto a really special talent coming up), and if your goal is to make a competitive profitable team, then being a farm greatly limits your ability to make money (given player movement and the inability to play in tournaments where the main team plays). You also as a farm need to be physically close to your parent club to minimize travel costs and speed to be game day ready in case of a call up, which makes it even less marketable as the big club is often just down the road.

Edited August 8, 2017 by -Hammer-

[harrycoyster]

15 minutes ago, -Hammer- said:

Although this is incredibly early speculation and I think I've only seen two articles to that effect, so I doubt it's much of a risk, I'm to understand the USL is talking about kicking the MLS farms out of the league. It's because they realize the MLS farms are not only dragging down their attendance averages, but that the MLS teams aren't putting the same level of investment into their player rosters.

There have been rumors that MLS2 teams will eventually be moved to the USL D3, but those plans are many years away even if true. The truth is, the USL has been decent for development recently and there is no reason for a team to move their better prospects into a league that is a complete question mark until the level of play is above USL and the league is stable.

Edited August 8, 2017 by harrycoyster