Admin Posted September 27, 2018 Share Posted September 27, 2018 6 minutes ago, LAK said: Valuations are the biggest factor in this scenario though. Montreal in the MLS is valued at $175 Million and Vancouver at $150 million. They are both near the bottom of the MLS in terms of valuations, but I don't think CPL teams are catching them in value in the next 10 - 20 years. Is it even economically possible for a team in a Canadian league to have such a valuation? Those are US dollars too. LAK 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LAK Posted September 27, 2018 Share Posted September 27, 2018 25 minutes ago, admin said: Is it even economically possible for a team in a Canadian league to have such a valuation? Those are US dollars too. Toronto FC are valued at $280Million USD by forbes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted September 27, 2018 Share Posted September 27, 2018 Just now, LAK said: Toronto FC are valued at $280Million USD by forbes. I know, but that's not what I mean. Could any team in a Canadian only league have a valuation of 365 million dollars CAD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted September 27, 2018 Share Posted September 27, 2018 8 minutes ago, admin said: Is it even economically possible for a team in a Canadian league to have such a valuation? Those are US dollars too. 16 minutes ago, LAK said: Valuations are the biggest factor in this scenario though. Montreal in the MLS is valued at $175 Million and Vancouver at $150 million. They are both near the bottom of the MLS in terms of valuations, but I don't think CPL teams are catching them in value in the next 10 - 20 years. The value of a franchise is subjective and varies from day-to-day based on what anyone interested in purchasing is willing to pay. It's not a 100% accurate figure, nor is it black or white. Unless the ultimate intent is to sell the team, I don't see what "estimated value" has that much to do with it in the context of joining and being part of CPL. It matters in the context of a divorce between the clubs and the league as they own shares of each other. Let's not forget that 10 years after the founding of MLS, the price to get in the league for TFC was $10M. Then when Montreal wanted to join: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/soccer/impact-linked-to-mls-expansion/article1200990/ -Montreal was favoured to be granted a franchise for 2011, but Impact president Joey Saputo, in conjunction with then-Montreal Canadiens owner George Gillett, balked at the $40-million (U.S.) asking price. Since then, Saputo has had a change of heart, and is willing to pay the same $35-million (U.S.) expansion fee Vancouver and Portland put up last year. Saputo wasn't willing to pay that price based on his own valuation of the league. Can't say I blame him as it was 4 times the price TFC paid and this figure was known as early as 2008. What made the league think that it's value quadrupled within 2 years? I hope the answer wasn't David Beckham...lol http://www.nationalpost.com/franchise+high+impact/988999/story.html -Saputo said he received no answer from Garber or from the league’s expansion committee as to why Montreal’s bid was eliminated and that he “could only assume it was the expansion fee and the fee alone which is the predominant criteria for entering MLS.” The price tag is four times greater than what Toronto paid to become the first MLS franchise in Canada in 2006 and $10 million more than what Seattle and Philadelphia paid last year to become the league’s 15th and 16th teams in 2009 and 2010, respectively. Another example The LA Clippers were sold for $2B. "Ballmer Buys L.A. Clippers for $2 Billion, Way More Than Team Is Worth. " -Time The Clippers Are Worth Nowhere Near What Ballmer Is Paying http://time.com/2800607/steve-ballmer-los-angeles-clippers-worth/ It's highly speculative and there are mechanism to drive it up to benefit a party. Very handy in TV and sponsor negotiations...no? ted 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex D Posted September 27, 2018 Share Posted September 27, 2018 What good are franchise values unless you sell them BenFisk'sBiggestFan, ted and Ansem 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted September 27, 2018 Share Posted September 27, 2018 (edited) Back to my point where I speculate that MLS values US TV markets way more than Canada except Toronto. Garber's comment as early as 2008 http://www.nationalpost.com/franchise+high+impact/988999/story.html Saputo was also asked if the handling of the proposal was a message that MLS didn’t really want another franchise in Canada in the wake of Garber’s remarks more Canadian franchises would “take away from growing our footprint and our television ratings in the United States.” What is it going to take for some people to understand that in the grand scheme of thing, we aren't vital except Toronto obviously??? People talk like "we're safe" and MLS/SUM/USSF would NEVER sacrifice a Canadian team to make place for Detroit or other top US TV market that are dying to get in and screaming : "take my money, we'll build anything you want! Look how hard Bettman fought for the Phoenix market to prevent a team in Southern Ontario or Quebec City. Look how hard he fought to give all the chance in the world to the Atlanta market before having no choice but to go back to Winnipeg. He didn't even blinked when he was hinting that the Flames could end up in Seattle. Look how fast Selig moved the Expos to Washington. At least I see reality for what it is. Put in a position where they have to choose, we will come LAST. MLS will hit saturation and I will be proven right. Like Clanachan said, " US interest will always come AHEAD of Canadian Interest". I'm just tired of that kind of environment. How about a league where Canada comes first? (In case some didn't get the memo, the NHL was founded in Canada but the Americans took it over) Wake up, we're just as capable. Just need to support our own Add: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_television_markets But sure...they'd rather keep Montreal and Vancouver over Las Vegas willing to build a SSS downtown and pay hundreds of millions of dollars. ? Edited September 27, 2018 by Ansem RS and MtlMario 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtlMario Posted September 27, 2018 Share Posted September 27, 2018 Iirc Saputo once said that he wouldn't pay 10 mil.(?) US for a MLS team. He said that on a sports radio talk station. Ansem 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted September 27, 2018 Share Posted September 27, 2018 3 hours ago, Ansem said: But sure...they'd rather keep Montreal and Vancouver over Las Vegas willing to build a SSS downtown and pay hundreds of millions of dollars. ? Who is proposing this? Why are you delving deeper and deeper into strawman arguments to win an internet discussion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toontownman Posted September 27, 2018 Share Posted September 27, 2018 It is hardly news that the MLS isn't and will almost certainly never be set up to benefit Canadian clubs. It is why this thread and the league was set up. That doesn't mean there aren't many benefits for Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto to be in the MLS, even despite barriers in comparison to American clubs. It could be said its more prestige than an equal monetary split though. It will likely take decades for the CPL to catch up even if it is successful and grows. That doesn't mean the Canadian MLS clubs wont jump in the future when things are more comparable. It would be a huge backwards step to do so in the near future though imo, not only for the clubs but for Canadian Soccer. Not unless we can mirror the same budgets as the MLS. MLS is still on track to be firmly in the top 10 leagues in the world. While there is some financial disparity I think the problems lie more with ownership. If the Whitecaps ownership feel they can't compete they need to take a look at themselves and seek investment outside or look at passing the club on to people that can afford to take the club forward. There is huge potential there in the city and I cannot believe for an instant more people wouldn't be interested in getting involved or looking at purchasing the club. I don't think the ownership is interested in sharing their formerly shiny toy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted September 27, 2018 Share Posted September 27, 2018 (edited) 33 minutes ago, RS said: Who is proposing this? Why are you delving deeper and deeper into strawman arguments to win an internet discussion? Report: MLS hold talks with St. Louis over expansion franchise https://soccer.nbcsports.com/2018/09/26/report-mls-hold-talks-with-st-louis-over-expansion-franchise/ Article was posted a few hours ago https://kmox.radio.com/articles/confirmed-new-hope-major-league-soccer-st-louis MLS commissioner Don Garber has still mentioned St. Louis as a possible expansion city for the league, as recently as this month. The league is still in the process of selecting two new franchises to begin play in the near future, after Nashville and Cincinnati earned spots in December 2017. St. Louis as well as Phoenix, Detroit, Charlotte, Las Vegas and San Diego were mentioned by Garber as possible cities. Edited September 27, 2018 by Ansem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted September 27, 2018 Share Posted September 27, 2018 12 minutes ago, toontownman said: That doesn't mean there aren't many benefits for Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto to be in the MLS, even despite barriers in comparison to American clubs. It could be said its more prestige than an equal monetary split though. It will likely take decades for the CPL to catch up even if it is successful and grows. That doesn't mean the Canadian MLS clubs wont jump in the future when things are more comparable. It would be a huge backwards step to do so in the near future though imo, not only for the clubs but for Canadian Soccer. Not unless we can mirror the same budgets as the MLS. Willing to drop all of this if the 3 MLS Canadians teams no longer count Americans as domestics. That's my #1 problem. If that happens, my narrative will change, until then, I hate the fact that Americans count as domestic on Canadian teams and Canadian soil 14 minutes ago, toontownman said: MLS is still on track to be firmly in the top 10 leagues in the world. I seriously doubt it. They aren't deep enough, otherwise, I wouldn't be stuck reading posts from people worrying about adding extra games in the V Cup to not hurt the 3 teams feelings and make their workload heavier by not giving them "byes". I don't think an MLS team can survive Champions league qualifications. I have doubts they even survive Europa qualifications and if they somehow make it, they get crushed in group stage. No MLS teams can handle a European campaign with all the different cups they compete for throughout the year while upholding their quality. MLS simply isn't there, could be done but not in their current financial structure, rules and salary cap. 19 minutes ago, toontownman said: If the Whitecaps ownership feel they can't compete they need to take a look at themselves and seek investment outside or look at passing the club on to people that can afford to take the club forward. There is huge potential there in the city and I cannot believe for an instant more people wouldn't be interested in getting involved or looking at purchasing the club. I don't think the ownership is interested in sharing their formerly shiny toy. 100% Agree with you for Vancouver Regarding Montreal, Bologna is Saputo's new baby. He cares about Montreal but....Serie A... toontownman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toontownman Posted September 27, 2018 Share Posted September 27, 2018 1 minute ago, Ansem said: Willing to drop all of this if the 3 MLS Canadians teams no longer count Americans as domestics. That's my #1 problem. If that happens, my narrative will change, until then, I hate the fact that Americans count as domestic on Canadian teams and Canadian soil. No real argument there. It is simple if the MLS doesn't want Canadians involved then they shouldn't allow Canadian teams in MLS. It is the same with Canadian teams not qualifying for champions league through the MLS. If two Canadian teams reached the final the 3rd best team in the league would qualify. Albeit this will be easier to take now we have two spots through the V-Cup and CPL. The MLS have always wanted their cake and ate it. The Canadian clubs are all in big market centres that improve the league. I understood the whole Americans being domestic here was to help the Canadian teams find players with less barriers. I don't have a problem with that while the CPL and our player pool is growing tbh. I object vehemently to the flipside not happening and Canadians not being domestic in the states. It's bonkers, but again nothing new. The US league is set up to benefit the US not Canada and our teams have always been invited to dinner but been made to sit on the kids table. 16 minutes ago, Ansem said: I seriously doubt it. Might be right about that financial structures although rich clubs are already finding loopholes to make disparity in the supposed level playing field the caps and rules are there for. It all depends on if they can continue the leagues growth on and off the pitch. I don't see any signs of that slowing down, its still taking off and certainly getting more popular in the general publics eyes. It is insanely better from when i moved over 10 years ago. Games are now being shown in the UK. They are as you say a ways off still but if the standard continues to improve I don't see many other leagues that match the ambition and back that up with improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LAK Posted September 27, 2018 Share Posted September 27, 2018 4 hours ago, admin said: I know, but that's not what I mean. Could any team in a Canadian only league have a valuation of 365 million dollars CAD. I know I was agreeing with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted September 27, 2018 Share Posted September 27, 2018 23 minutes ago, LAK said: I know I was agreeing with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted September 27, 2018 Share Posted September 27, 2018 2 hours ago, Ansem said: Report: MLS hold talks with St. Louis over expansion franchise https://soccer.nbcsports.com/2018/09/26/report-mls-hold-talks-with-st-louis-over-expansion-franchise/ Article was posted a few hours ago https://kmox.radio.com/articles/confirmed-new-hope-major-league-soccer-st-louis MLS commissioner Don Garber has still mentioned St. Louis as a possible expansion city for the league, as recently as this month. The league is still in the process of selecting two new franchises to begin play in the near future, after Nashville and Cincinnati earned spots in December 2017. St. Louis as well as Phoenix, Detroit, Charlotte, Las Vegas and San Diego were mentioned by Garber as possible cities. Garber has literally named dozens of cities in these expansion articles over the years, including the likes of San Antonio, Sacramento, Rochester, Jacksonville, Memphis, etc. because a huge part of his job is to drum up interest and (more importantly) make MLS seem like a desirable place for as many cities as possible. Yet none of them have a downtown SSS, and this little blurb doesn't say anything about Las Vegas building one. Moreover, there is no evidence to suggest that the existence of Montreal and Vancouver in MLS is a hindrance to the league adding teams in any American city. It simply isn't an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted September 27, 2018 Share Posted September 27, 2018 1 hour ago, toontownman said: No real argument there. It is simple if the MLS doesn't want Canadians involved then they shouldn't allow Canadian teams in MLS. It is the same with Canadian teams not qualifying for champions league through the MLS. If two Canadian teams reached the final the 3rd best team in the league would qualify. Because the USSF and CSA designate their CCL spots, not MLS. toontownman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Hammer- Posted September 27, 2018 Share Posted September 27, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, admin said: Is it even economically possible for a team in a Canadian league to have such a valuation? Those are US dollars too. Not any time in the near future. The best estimates I can find for the CFL (which is indisputably the most financially successful, purely Canadian league) put the average franchise valuation at around 4-12 million, but these numbers are likely woefully inaccurate. Given both the Edmonton Eskimos and Saskatchewan Roughriders have 13+ million "Stabilization funds" and consistently post profits in the millions typically (and usually in the tens of millions during Grey Cup hosting years). I would think 12-75 is a more accurate number, with the more successful, Western franchises higher on the ladder then the Eastern teams. Regardless though, far less then most US sports franchises (MLS included).https://cfldb.ca/faq/league/ The main reason why this is so low is unlike soccer, CFL contracts are more a liability then an asset. If you had to liquidate an MLS team, you could sell all your players to other leagues. The CFL doesn't have that luxury, as the only major pro Football league is the NFL and they would likely only be interested in buying a small portion of the contracts from the CFL. Additionally, there isn't as much valuation on potential growth for the CFL because the league doesn't have a lot of avenues for revenue expansion really apart from US television revenue (which apparently the CFL is starting to make headway on) and a couple of unproven, likely unstable Canadian markets (Quebec City and Halifax specifically). Looking outside the CFL though to the CHL (which has a few US franchises). Even during a fairly disputable study, which overwhelmingly favored potential future revenue into franchise valuation for CHL teams (hence why teams of fairly consistent low attendance such as Ottawa and Mississauga were valued more then the revenue powerhouse that is the London Knights) put the maximum value of a CHL franchise at close to $69 million (for Calgary) despite most teams actually only selling for around 3-5 million. This is a league that while having some minor TV programming on Rogers Sportsnet, their own cable subscription option, mainly sticks to local cable. Anyways, it will take at least a decade for the fledgling CanPL to reach these kinds of valuations, and only if they can start drawing full stadiums similar to CFL teams and cement a television contract, and even then, they still won't likely be in striking distance of 300 million any time soon. Edited September 27, 2018 by -Hammer- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LAK Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 1 hour ago, -Hammer- said: Not any time in the near future. The best estimates I can find for the CFL (which is indisputably the most financially successful, purely Canadian league) put the average franchise valuation at around 4-12 million, but these numbers are likely woefully inaccurate. Given both the Edmonton Eskimos and Saskatchewan Roughriders have 13+ million "Stabilization funds" and consistently post profits in the millions typically (and usually in the tens of millions during Grey Cup hosting years). I would think 12-75 is a more accurate number, with the more successful, Western franchises higher on the ladder then the Eastern teams. Regardless though, far less then most US sports franchises (MLS included).https://cfldb.ca/faq/league/ Yeah, those valuations are pretty low. I've heard talk of Edmonton and Saskatchewan being worth $40 million plus. I don't know if this is true but on some message board someone claimed that Braley (BC Lions owner) was asking $80 million for the Lions Although, he has not yet sold it, so maybe he did ask and no one was willing to pay that. Also, the last expansion team Ottawa had to pay $7 million which I believe was set in 2012 and they entered the league in 2014. The talk of an Atlantic team expansion fee is minimum $10 million...which I means to me that no team is worth less than that. They still aren't up to MLS valuations but that is based on potential US tv contracts and the pyramid scheme of crazy expansion fees. But...like @ansem says it's only worth what someone is willing to pay...so as long as people fork over huge expansion fees to get into that league, they are at least worth that. It might stabilize once they run out of expansion cities, but that's a big country and they've convinced so many people already to buy in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toontownman Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 2 hours ago, RS said: Because the USSF and CSA designate their CCL spots, not MLS. Makes more sense. It's will certainly be more fair moving forward at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 (edited) 11 hours ago, toontownman said: ...It will likely take decades for the CPL to catch up even if it is successful and grows... Realistically, why would you expect to ever be able to do so even if it is successful and grows? When has the Scottish league ever had the strength in depth that the English one does given there is a tenth of the population to draw spectators and historically also players from? Not having to deal with the Canadian equivalent of the Old Firm (I am referring to the sheer size of the clubs rather than the religious/political angle, a better analogy would maybe be Benfica, Sporting and Porto in Portugal) should help to make the league more equitable and interesting for everybody else and at that point as long as fans are in touch with reality where comparisons with MLS are concerned a good time should be had by all. Edited September 28, 2018 by BringBackTheBlizzard zen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob.notenboom Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 The worst kept secret in Canadian Soccer is now out. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/soccer/article-canadian-premier-league-signs-apparel-deal-with-italys-macron/ soccerlife, Greatest Cockney Rip Off, Complete Homer and 2 others 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackjack15 Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 4 hours ago, rob.notenboom said: The worst kept secret in Canadian Soccer is now out. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/soccer/article-canadian-premier-league-signs-apparel-deal-with-italys-macron/ - Kit sponsor & Manufacturing deal ✅ What’s to come: - Forge FC Head Coach Announcement ? - Broadcasting Rights | TV | Streaming❓In the coming months - Launch with 7 or 8 Teams (24-28 Game Schedule) TBD this year - Player signings beginning November & December as well as the Transfer Window in January - Airline or Hotel Partnership perhaps? To cut down on the costs of travel and accommodation Exciting things are coming! Greatest Cockney Rip Off 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 Some people need to keep in mind that these numbers are without mainstream media attention and with medium to low marketing campaigns so far toontownman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Complete Homer Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 7 minutes ago, Ansem said: Some people need to keep in mind that these numbers are without mainstream media attention and with medium to low marketing campaigns so far While I agree, that only really matters if they plan on attempting mainstream marketing on a large scale. We'll have to see if that actually happens Ansem 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 20 minutes ago, Complete Homer said: While I agree, that only really matters if they plan on attempting mainstream marketing on a large scale. We'll have to see if that actually happens If the league wants a shot at exceeding their target and exceeding it, they have no choice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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