CPL General

[SthMelbRed]

5 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

No obvious reason why it wouldn't be, so I just took it to mean that the total budget is north of 1 million, which would still be the case with a 500k cap for the players.

I have a simple question for you.

I haven't been around the V's boards much over the past couple of years, so have missed much of the lead-up discussions for CPL. However, I've been reading much more over the past couple of months.

Now, my question is this...is there any bit of negative information about the league, no matter how obscure or speculative, that you won't spin as irrefutable evidence backing up your extreme pessimism over the new league? Likewise, is there anything positive that you won't simply dismiss as being unreliable spin?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

That bizarre outburst presupposes that a 500k cap would be a bad thing. Lower costs means teams should be less likely to lose money and franchises will be less likely to fold at the end of season one. That's a good thing and likely to enhance rather than detract from the league's overall longevity. A lower cap should also mean significantly more domestic content, which is the niche this league should be aiming for if it is going to help create a deeper pool of talent for the CMNT rather than becoming obsessed over whether my league is bigger than your league when it comes to comparisons with the USL. A functional and stable D3 type league in USSF sanctioning terms (and that can still be D1 for the CSA given the much smaller population involved and the presence of the three MLS teams) operating from coast to coast in cities like Victoria and Halifax would be superb for Canadian soccer.

Edited September 18, 2018 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[Cheeta]

14 hours ago, mpg_29 said:

....

I just wonder travel is included in "soccer operations" or not.

Nah.  Travel costs are logistics.  If you're including that in your soccer operations you may as well include venue costs.  Don't think that works in the contex which was being discussed.

And besides, anyone think the league should be policing travel costs of the franchises if the league doesn't cover the travel costs of those franchises?  Does it need to?

 

 

[C2SKI]

2 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

That bizarre outburst presupposes that a 500k cap would be a bad thing. Lower costs means teams should be less likely to lose money and franchises will be less likely to fold at the end of season one. That's a good thing and likely to enhance rather than detract from the league's overall longevity. A lower cap should also mean significantly more domestic content, which is the niche this league should be aiming for if it is going to help create a deeper pool of talent for the CMNT rather than becoming obsessed over whether my league is bigger than your league when it comes to comparisons with the USL. A functional and stable D3 type league in USSF sanctioning terms (and that can still be D1 for the CSA given the much smaller population involved and the presence of the three MLS teams) operating from coast to coast in cities like Victoria and Halifax would be superb for Canadian soccer.

Lol.

Edited September 18, 2018 by C2SKI

[soccerlife]

15 hours ago, mpg_29 said:

The phrase "north of $1 Million" from Clanachan sort of reminds of "under $1 Million" from Shillington in that it is probably within a close range (ie 250K) of stated amount.

It's possible we have something like ~750K player cap and ~500K for coaching, etc. That would be ~1.25M in total ie "north of $1 M" for all player + soccer operations(Clanachan) and "under $1M" for player salaries (Shillington).

I just wonder travel is included in "soccer operations" or not.

That is the best breakdown I have seen that nobody seems to consider.  Folks have jumped from it not being $1-1.5 to it being $500. Your breakdown makes total sense. 

[LAK]

3 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

That bizarre outburst presupposes that a 500k cap would be a bad thing. Lower costs means teams should be less likely to lose money and franchises will be less likely to fold at the end of season one. That's a good thing and likely to enhance rather than detract from the league's overall longevity. A lower cap should also mean significantly more domestic content, which is the niche this league should be aiming for if it is going to help create a deeper pool of talent for the CMNT rather than becoming obsessed over whether my league is bigger than your league when it comes to comparisons with the USL. A functional and stable D3 type league in USSF sanctioning terms (and that can still be D1 for the CSA given the much smaller population involved and the presence of the three MLS teams) operating from coast to coast in cities like Victoria and Halifax would be superb for Canadian soccer.

The problem with that premise is that it completely ignores everything the league has stated from the beginning.  They have vetted the ownership and EVERYONE is expecting to lose money for the first while. It has been stated by league officials, owners, everyone involved in the league that they will lose millions for the first little while.

You seem to think that the year one we lose half the ownership and everyone starts bailing on finances just because that's what happened with the old league. This is not the 80's, this is not the same league structure nor the same business model.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

3 hours ago, LAK said:

...and EVERYONE is expecting to lose money for the first while...

https://biv.com/article/2018/08/canadian-premier-league-owners-ready-launch

...“Investing in a sports team is not my MO,” Shillington said.

“I’m traditionally a very conservative investor. The businesses that I have are based on that premise, but the way this league has been structured, it is able to be viable on Day 1.”...

...Many details of the new league have yet to be finalized, including its salary cap for players. Shillington wants it to be less than $1 million. A separate salary cap would likely be in effect for coaching staff.

“We want all the clubs to have responsible owners and not have one go out and spend a lot of money to start an arms race of player signings,” he said.

“The key, as a business guy, is for this league to be around in 20 years, 50 years or 100 years. The owners have to be on the same page and to grow the league responsibly in time.” ...

That could be Ottawa on starting an arms race, basically.

 

Edited September 18, 2018 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[xcalibre]

The thing is, putting artificial constraints on owners means they'll invest elsewhere. Look at all the North American millionaires investing in European teams, despite FFP... clearly they see it as a more worthwhile expenditure than the closed system in the US and Canada, even if they'll be outspended themselves by even richer people.

Not that Frank Stronach would be necessarily investing in TFC if it was open, but if a team wants to spend money, it seems silly to say no.

On a side note, I'd love to see Brazilian-style "state leagues" as preseason where TFC, Ottawa, and a CanPL/OL1 team or two play a round-robin Ontario championship instead of the usual trip to Arizona or Florida or wherever.

[shermanator]

Cavalry FC press conference coming up in an hour. Probably to announce that the CPL is doomed to fail, and that they are folding...

 

[BenFisk'sBiggestFan]

Growth requires investments... That is basically the number 1 rule in Finance. And in this case i think it takes more than just physical investments. In the soccer business, the number 1 asset is people, so I encourage a higher salary cap. You need good coaches and players to build a league, not just a good front office and stadium.

[shermanator]

It's the announcement of the coaching staff. 

Martin Nash joins as assistant coach and Technical Director. Jordan Santiago joins as goalkeeping coach.

[Blackjack15]

22 minutes ago, shermanator said:

It's the announcement of the coaching staff. 

Martin Nash joins as assistant coach and Technical Director. Jordan Santiago joins as goalkeeping coach.

Two very good additions, is that it? Or will there be one or two more people added to the staff later down the road

[Nerf]

If any investor in this league thinks that they are going to break even in year one, then they are truly in for a shock. I don't think any of them expect their balance sheet to be in the black any time soon. My guess is that they hope that their minimal initial cost for purchasing the rights to a team will pay out as team values increase over the years.  MLS teams have increased dramatically in value, yet they don't make a lot of money...or any money in many cases. Salaries must be higher to attract maximum talent to maximize attendance at the gates and on TV. That is how these owners will make their money.

[LAK]

3 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

https://biv.com/article/2018/08/canadian-premier-league-owners-ready-launch

...“Investing in a sports team is not my MO,” Shillington said.

“I’m traditionally a very conservative investor. The businesses that I have are based on that premise, but the way this league has been structured, it is able to be viable on Day 1.”...

...Many details of the new league have yet to be finalized, including its salary cap for players. Shillington wants it to be less than $1 million. A separate salary cap would likely be in effect for coaching staff.

“We want all the clubs to have responsible owners and not have one go out and spend a lot of money to start an arms race of player signings,” he said.

“The key, as a business guy, is for this league to be around in 20 years, 50 years or 100 years. The owners have to be on the same page and to grow the league responsibly in time.” ...

That could be Ottawa on starting an arms race, basically.

 

That's one owner out of seven. I could find several pages of quotes on Bob Young's philosophy of spending in sports and it's a completely different picture. The business model the league will use is probably somewhere in between those two extremes. You grab the one that fits your narrative...there's nothing new here. I know you think you're being realistic but you're not, you're being pessimistic. You love going back and finding quotes...go back and see what people's problems with you have been all along. There could be 10 sources of info, you will attack the credibility, the sincerity, honesty of any information that doesn't fit your narrative. I once quoted Clanachan as a source and you said you didn't believe him. Yet some anonymous twitter feed is gospel truth to you if it fits your narrative...while out the other side of your mouth you bash a blogger because he's just a blogger.

So in conclusion... I think Shillington is lying. There, how does that feel? I just took you're real proof and negated it because it didn't fit my narrative. Hey, that's really easy to do. Now I know why you do it.

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, LAK said:

That's one owner out of seven. I could find several pages of quotes on Bob Young's philosophy of spending in sports and it's a completely different picture. The business model the league will use is probably somewhere in between those two extremes. You grab the one that fits your narrative...there's nothing new here. I know you think you're being realistic but you're not, you're being pessimistic. You love going back and finding quotes...go back and see what people's problems with you have been all along. There could be 10 sources of info, you will attack the credibility, the sincerity, honesty of any information that doesn't fit your narrative. I once quoted Clanachan as a source and you said you didn't believe him. Yet some anonymous twitter feed is gospel truth to you if it fits your narrative...while out the other side of your mouth you bash a blogger because he's just a blogger.

So in conclusion... I think Shillington is lying. There, how does that feel? I just took you're real proof and negated it because it didn't fit my narrative. Hey, that's really easy to do. Now I know why you do it.

Amen

[CDNFootballer]

11 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

That bizarre outburst presupposes that a 500k cap would be a bad thing. Lower costs means teams should be less likely to lose money and franchises will be less likely to fold at the end of season one. That's a good thing and likely to enhance rather than detract from the league's overall longevity. A lower cap should also mean significantly more domestic content, which is the niche this league should be aiming for if it is going to help create a deeper pool of talent for the CMNT rather than becoming obsessed over whether my league is bigger than your league when it comes to comparisons with the USL. A functional and stable D3 type league in USSF sanctioning terms (and that can still be D1 for the CSA given the much smaller population involved and the presence of the three MLS teams) operating from coast to coast in cities like Victoria and Halifax would be superb for Canadian soccer.

Even though the 500K cap thing is only a rumour and it could be higher that figure would still put CPL at about equal to USL D2 not a D3 type league in USSF sanctioning terms.

[Winnipeg Fury]

 

I honestly could care less what the CPL budget is.  It can be 1.2 million, $850,000, $700,000..........who cares.  Nor do I care if CPL is better than Ottawa Fury, or has a bigger budget, etc.....In the big picture, it's meaningless.

CPL is in it for the long haul.  CPL need a viable, sustainable business plan.  I believe they have that.  If they can stick to the script, it will grow in quality every year.  And if the old CSL is any indication, the difference in quality year to year will be massive.

As a season ticket holder, that's what I want and expect.  A Canadian league that's in it for the long haul.  The rest will take care of itself.

 

Edited September 19, 2018 by Winnipeg Fury

[yellowsweatygorilla]

1 hour ago, Winnipeg Fury said:

 

 And if the old CSL is any indication, the difference in quality year to year will be massive.

 

Could you elaborate on that? Was the old CSL growing in quality year by year before it collapsed?

[BillyBob]

I think having an open league system combined with sensible spending limits is best to start.

This is a league to develop the Canadian player pool which despite having potential is not at the level of other teams yet.

I know some fans want to take over the world in year 5 but you cant expect to outbid Champions League sides for talent. 

[SthMelbRed]

20 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

That bizarre outburst presupposes that a 500k cap would be a bad thing. Lower costs means teams should be less likely to lose money and franchises will be less likely to fold at the end of season one. That's a good thing and likely to enhance rather than detract from the league's overall longevity. A lower cap should also mean significantly more domestic content, which is the niche this league should be aiming for if it is going to help create a deeper pool of talent for the CMNT rather than becoming obsessed over whether my league is bigger than your league when it comes to comparisons with the USL. A functional and stable D3 type league in USSF sanctioning terms (and that can still be D1 for the CSA given the much smaller population involved and the presence of the three MLS teams) operating from coast to coast in cities like Victoria and Halifax would be superb for Canadian soccer.

Really? You're going to try and characterise what I wrote as an outburst? You truly are a clown, aren't you?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Time to put you on ignore, if you are going to resort to playground level insults rather than deal with the question of whether a 500k cap is actually a bad thing.

[SthMelbRed]

Ignore away. Don't forget that it was you that sidestepped my initial question from my 'outburst' before I ever had the chance to sidestep yours.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

10 hours ago, LAK said:

That's one owner out of seven...

...which is not the same as "EVERYONE" and subsequent to that appearing Ottawa announced they were staying in the USL with sources close to the Fury front office making it clear they were doing so because of what they perceived as a 500k salary cap. It's like the Port City FC placeholder thing a few months ago, the evidence that a low cap is happening is there staring you in the face for those that are not emotionally invested in the notion of a relatively high budget league.

Something like the original CSL in scale would be really good if it could work this time and is a lot less likely to fold than a high budget league like the NASL that tries to rival MLS in some way and winds up with franchises losing into seven figures every year, so a move to a relatively low and rigidly enforced cap has always appeared to me to be the sensible way to go. If that's in place, all they need to do now would be to allow in rebranded MLS affiliates to shore up some of the weaker markets and I would have nothing much left to criticize at this point.

Edited September 19, 2018 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[clb2c4e]

To me what's much more important, for the league and for the perception of it is not so much the salary cap but the salary minimum.  That should be a salary equivalent to full time work, aka, to be a professional.  So basically, as long as the minimum is above 30k then I don't think the cap matters too much.

Of course, for the minimum to be 30k for 25 players, that is a cap of a minimum 750k, and realistically, a cap of nearer to 1m if you want to have any players paid above that.

Still, whatever it is, I think it's very important to have everyone on the roster a 'full time' player.

Edited September 19, 2018 by clb2c4e
grammar

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Do you really need to pay 25 players like that when maybe 15 or 16 at most will be getting significant playing time? As long as the core of the roster is training full-time filling out the rest of the roster with local guys that can train with the team some of the time on weeknights and be called up from local amateur or semi-pro clubs and youth teams when needed is no big deal. I'm skeptical that you can make this fly in the smaller 200,000-500,000 markets otherwise. Ottawa is a different story being an almost MLS-sized market, so it's difficult to make one size fit all but longevity and expansion are more likely by catering to the needs of the smaller markets rather than the larger ones.

Edit: and just to provide an example of how this can work well for Canadian soccer. Having that local low budget component to the roster is how the 1990 London Lasers provided Jason Devos with the first stepping stone to being a CMNT mainstay.

Edited September 19, 2018 by BringBackTheBlizzard