CPL General

[Alex D]

5 hours ago, -Hammer- said:

I always wondered why Chatham never got an OHL team.

The manufacturing sector fled south and the city was left a shell of itself. The city is broke. 

[grasshopper1917]

5 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

If the CPL is going to start at USL level, they are going to rely heavily on the US player base; especially in central defense and at keeper.

Are you happy with 42 Canadians and 126 foreigners in the CPL? Because I'm not. 

An opportunity for 42 Canadians making the jump to playing fully pro soccer.... you would not be happy?? That would be a MAJOR boost for Canadian players. We need to balance quality of play and development if we want any chance to succeed. I personally think 42 Canadians starting out would be a stretch. If you expect Canadians to turn out by the thousands to support a league with a level of play below USL - its not going to happen. 

Im all for giving Canadians a shot - they need to earn it though. I understand this is  voyagers forum but most casual fans wanna see top quality. As Canadian we love to have Canadian players to cheer on - realistically the Canadian talent pool for top flight professional soccer player is not huge. Not to mention many of the top ones are allready in MLS.

[Bison44]

3 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

If the CPL is going to start at USL level, they are going to rely heavily on the US player base; especially in central defense and at keeper.

Are you happy with 42 Canadians and 126 foreigners in the CPL? Because I'm not. 

Harry...do you think we cant find 6-8 Keepers out there of minimum USL quality??  Ingham, Cavalluzzo, Roberts, Carducci, Debellis, melvin, Pantemis, and from US Colleges, D. St CLair and J Beaulieu.  Thats not even counting any overseas guys that might want to come back.  Hell the proposed 6 starting teams could even have a gentlemans agreement to all have CDN keepers and it wouldnt be that bad of quality.  

[harrycoyster]

6 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Their intention is above D2. So, I don't see why they'd sign a D2 American ahead of a D2-D1 South American or Central American

Everything about American players is easier than South Americans. Americans are easier to scout, easier to acquire, easier to implement into Canadian society, easier to coach. All the same reason why NCAA programs have a disproportionate number of Canadians.

6 minutes ago, grasshopper1917 said:

An opportunity for 42 Canadians making the jump to playing fully pro soccer.... you would not be happy?

That's not what this is though. Most of those 42 payers would already be professionals, and those that aren't wouldn't see the field in a league better than the USL. 42 Canadians means maybe 20 Canadian starters, all of whom were probably getting minutes somewhere else in the world. 

[harrycoyster]

Just now, Bison44 said:

Harry...do you think we cant find 6-8 Keepers out there of minimum USL quality??  Ingham, Cavalluzzo, Roberts, Carducci, Debellis, melvin, Pantemis, and from US Colleges, D. St CLair and J Beaulieu.  Thats not even counting any overseas guys that might want to come back.  Hell the proposed 6 starting teams could even have a gentlemans agreement to all have CDN keepers and it wouldnt be that bad of quality.  

1) I'm not counting players that are in the TFC, IMFC or VWC pipeline. They should stay in MLS.

2) Hard pass on any of the other keepers you listed as starting on a USL quality side. St. Clair has a decently high ceiling, but you can't put a kid who has one start in the NCAA in two years between the posts and call yourself USL quality. 

[Bison44]

HEHE, do you think any of those guys in the MLS pipeline are going to the big club??  Cavalluzzo was on multiple team of the week in USL and was replaced at tfc2 by american Pais.  Melvin wont get past RIchey or whatever NZ dude the WC bring in.  Roberts and Carducci were both decent in USL and got shat out of the MLS pipeline.  Those are the kinds of guys that need another shot, need to get some minutes. Especially for keepers that need time to develop and can play deep into their 30's.

  OOps I forgot N Wirth (Pho), Macleod (SKC), Paulmin (ott) and Mcrae (ott) in the in the "I'm in the USL already trying to get minutes" category. There is 9-10 USL guys (not current starters like Irving) that could jump ship and instantly get more minutes in a CPL. If 5-6 of those guys get a living wage in canada (CPL year 1) and 1-2 of those guys can break through and win starting jobs, and then keep moving up the ladder the CPL would be doing its job.   If CDN kids cant get a decent look with a CDN team and league, then who is going to give them a shot??         

[Ansem]

@harrycoyster

Hell, even Crepeau in Montreal is unlikely to start for Montreal Impact unless Evan Bush gets hurt or move elsewhere. Crepeau proved during the Canadian Championship that he belongs in MLS yet, a Quebec kid won't start for a while, maybe next Canadian championship.

A comparable wage in CPL and Crepeau joins. He was dominating even in defeat against TFC.

Can we stop this "If you aren't playing in MLS regularly, you're crap"? Because lots of people knows there's circumstances explaining why Canadians that are MLS caliber aren't playing/starting in MLS. If you think for comparable pay they won't join CPL, you're mistaken.

Neymar thought us that money does talk and it's public knowledge that MLS salary disparity is huge so those Canadian players aren't earning that much to bench and to go back and forth in USL.

Things aren't as black and white as you're trying to paint it.

 

[mpg_29]

1 hour ago, Greatest Cockney Rip Off said:

How would it be independent if it was owned by an MLS team? 

To give an example....I mean Joey Saputo has Impact and Bologna...two different teams in different D1 leagues.

[DannyFromToronto23]

what if tfc own a club in CanPL  in london but dont name it TFC ii they call it "London Reds FC"

[harrycoyster]

 

14 minutes ago, Ansem said:

@harrycoyster

Hell, even Crepeau in Montreal is unlikely to start for Montreal Impact unless Evan Bush gets hurt or move elsewhere. Crepeau proved during the Canadian Championship that he belongs in MLS yet, a Quebec kid won't start for a while, maybe next Canadian championship.

A comparable wage in CPL and Crepeau joins. He was dominating even in defeat against TFC.

Can we stop this "If you aren't playing in MLS regularly, you're crap"? Because lots of people knows there's circumstances explaining why Canadians that are MLS caliber aren't playing/starting in MLS. If you think for comparable pay they won't join CPL, you're mistaken.

Things aren't as black and white as you're trying to paint it.

Evan Bush is a sub-par MLS goalkeeper and Crepeau is a slightly more sub-par MLS goalkeeper. I don't see your point. 

If you think Crepeau isn't an established MLS starter because he's Canadian, you're blinded by his nationality. I can easily name 10 USL/NASL goalkeepers I'd rather have. Hell, at least Callum Irving can catch the ball.

Edited August 3, 2017 by harrycoyster

[Ansem]

3 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Evan Bush is a sub-par MLS goalkeeper and Crepeau is a slightly more sub-par MLS goalkeeper. I don't see your point. 

Bush was the CCL best goalkeeper of the tournament when Montreal went to the finals. Yep, you aren't making sense my friend

[BenFisk'sBiggestFan]

3 hours ago, ironcub14 said:

Really, the biggest argument I've seen against having reserve teams in CPL over the months on this forum and on FB/Twitter boils down to something close to this: "If we host reserve teams in CPL, we look like a little brother unbefitting of D1 status"

It's disheartening how many Canadian soccer fans are self-conscious enough about the image of CPL that that is what they think. Yeah, the teams draw terrible attendance, but you know what, the teams are all subsidized anyways, and more fans in the GTA and Metro Vancouver should be striving to support these teams imo.

To me, the teams that Davies, Edwards, Froese, Bustos, Babouli, Chapman, Jay Hams, too many to name that have made their bones there, in addition to the ghost of FC Montreal that housed Tabla, Jackson-Hamel, etc etc, these are precisely the kind of teams we want in CPL, to further aid the development of CanM20, CanM23 and CanMNT.

For the record, I've stated numerous times that I want an independent CPL club in both the GTA and Metro Vancouver at the same time as TFCII and WFC2, to have two teams in CPL from both CMAs. I want to see CPL grow quickly with sustainable clubs, and those two USL teams, crappy attendance they may have, are subsidized and sustainable.

I agree to a point. The only problem I see with this is that the development squads for MLS may not keep up to the same level as the CPL teams. If there was promotion a relegation like there is in spain it makes sure that the Development squads play where they are supposed to by level. But if the CPL pushes past the level of the MLS 2 teams then those teams would be dragging the league down. I think they are looking at it in the long run and thinking it isn't the best idea. Perhaps in the future it could work, if there was pro/rel. But otherwise it might not be a good idea. 

I do NOT want to turn this into a pro/rel debate. So i am just going to leave it at that. I have mixed feelings about having the MLS 2 teams. 

[harrycoyster]

Just now, Ansem said:

Bush was the CCL best goalkeeper of the tournament when Montreal went to the finals. Yep, you aren't making sense my friend

Bush's save percentage is 58.5% this season. That's good for 22 among the 23 keepers with 10 MLS starts this season. 

Last season he had a save percentage of 65.2%. That's 5th worst among goalkeepers that got 10 starts last season.

He's clearly bottom half of the league. But hey, don't let stats get in the way of a CCL run two and a half years ago. 

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, harrycoyster said:

Bush's save percentage is 58.5% this season. That's good for 22 among the 23 keepers with 10 MLS starts this season. 

Last season he had a save percentage of 65.2%. That's 5th worst among goalkeepers that got 10 starts last season.

He's clearly bottom half of the league. But hey, don't let stats get in the way of a CCL run two and a half years ago. 

I'm confused. 

So he's not MLS caliber then? I'm not debating who's the best or not, just who can play at that level and by you're own admission, he's not the worst, granted there's better keepers. Also, maybe poor defending has a little to do with it too, don't you think?

My point is that if Crepeau can play in MLS, but doesn't due to Bush being ahead of him, a CPL team would still be getting a good goalkeeper (granted not world class in Crepeau) but still with a lot of upside and potential to become a good keeper. Also, that's the whole point of CPL too, guys like Crepeau needs to start to get better. I'm a Chelsea fan and Courtois had he's share of stinkers but he learned from his mistakes. Crepeau needs to play more to get better but he shown flashes of having potential to be a consistent solid goalkeeper. How can you improved if you aren't put in match situations more often which teaches you to deal with pressure and unpredictability. Practice is important but it just isn't the same. 

one last thing, those in love with MLS absolutely lose me when they write messages implying that anything outside of MLS is "subpar" and even qualifying a current American goalkeeper as "subpar" just to drive the point across that Crepeau is also "subpar" to minimize an hypothetical scenario where Crepeau would bring a lot to a CPL side needs to be called out on the "BS" they are trying to sell. Not buying it. 

[Ansem]

54 minutes ago, mpg_29 said:

To give an example....I mean Joey Saputo has Impact and Bologna...two different teams in different D1 leagues.

An ocean separates Italy and Canada. You can't say that between MLS and CPL, the conflict of interest is obvious. Not even sure MLS would be ok with their owners having their own teams in CPL occupying MLS territories

[ironcub14]

Completely different topic, but I'm watching the Argos game on TV at the moment, while going through my sports apps, catching up on general sports news. 

I look through the Score and Sportnet apps, and no mention of any CFL news on the front page, though there's obviously coverage of Kap, and some Tannehill and some NCAA news, as we'd normally expect. The TSN app does have a bunch of CFL news on its main news section though, with highlights from this Stampeders' trashing of the Argos on at the moment.

All of it just drives home the point to me how much CPL has to go even to just hit CFL/MLS/NASL popularity, and then even some more to hit mainstream popularity. And for me, I have no idea what the likelihood is, but how incredible of a boost it would be for Sportnet to carry TV coverage of CPL and on its website and app. Can't tell you how incredibly amazing that would be if the case, although Rogers's partnership in MLSE may make this all quite difficult. 

Maybe all this does tie in with the CPL/MLSE discussions as well. 

[harrycoyster]

50 minutes ago, Ansem said:

1) My point is that if Crepeau can play in MLS, but doesn't due to Bush being ahead of him, a CPL team would still be getting a good goalkeeper (granted not world class in Crepeau)

2) one last thing, those in love with MLS absolutely lose me when they write messages implying that anything outside of MLS is "subpar" and even qualifying a current American goalkeeper as "subpar" just to drive the point across that Crepeau is also "subpar" to minimize an hypothetical scenario where Crepeau would bring a lot to a CPL side needs to be called out on the "BS" they are trying to sell. Not buying it. 

1) I reject your hypothesis. Crepeau doesn't play in MLS because he isn't good enough, not because he's behind Bush. The last few times I've seen Crepeau he's been a disaster.

2) I'm not saying Bush is subpar to drive home the point that Crepeau is subpar. I'm calling Bush subpar because he is, and I'm calling Crepeau subpar because that's what he's been. Crepeau can probably give some USL keepers a run for their money, but its nonsense to suggest that he'd "bring a lot" to a CPL side if you are expecting the CPL to be above USL level. If Crepeau is one of the better starters on a CPL team, that team isn't better than the average USL/NASL team. 

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, harrycoyster said:

repeau doesn't play in MLS because he isn't good enough, not because he's behind Bush. The last few times I've seen Crepeau he's been a disaster.

1 of the 2 goals he let in during the gold cup should have been stopped but he was great during the Canadian championship against another MLS team

2 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

2) I'm not saying Bush is subpar to drive home the point that Crepeau is subpar. I'm calling Bush subpar because he is, and I'm calling Crepeau subpar because that's what he's been. Crepeau can probably give some USL keepers a run for their money, but its nonsense to suggest that he'd "bring a lot" to a CPL side if you are expecting the CPL to be above USL level. If Crepeau is one of the better starters on a CPL team, that team isn't better than the average USL/NASL team. 

So a bunch of MLS keepers are subpar. Perhaps it's a league thing more so than individuals

[harrycoyster]

Just now, Ansem said:

1 of the 2 goals he let in during the gold cup should have been stopped but he was great during the Canadian championship against another MLS team

So a bunch of MLS keepers are subpar. Perhaps it's a league thing more so than individuals

I'm guessing you didn't see his game against the Red Bulls last week where he made mistakes on 3 separate goals.

[Ansem]

Just now, harrycoyster said:

I'm guessing you didn't see his game against the Red Bulls last week where he made mistakes on 3 separate goals.

So he's subpar based on 1 game...ok...whatever you say

As I pointed earlier, Courtois had bad games too

[harrycoyster]

Just now, Ansem said:

So he's subpar based on 1 game...ok...whatever you say

As I pointed earlier, Courtois had bad games too

No, he was subpar against French Guiana. He was a flaming dumpster fire against the Red Bulls. Two bad games, whatever. It's the fact that he is terrible positionally and even worse with his hands that is the real issue. He's not one of these "all the tools, but raw" types, he is athletically flawed.

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, harrycoyster said:

No, he was subpar against French Guiana. He was a flaming dumpster fire against the Red Bulls. Two bad games, whatever. It's the fact that he is terrible positionally and even worse with his hands that is the real issue. He's not one of these "all the tools, but raw" types, he is athletically flawed.

There's room from improvement but he needs to play more often to improve. Athletically flawed? Then a lot of MLS keepers are...

[Bison44]

Avoiding a referendum on Crepeau here, but isnt the point of CPL to give our guys a shot and maybe they will develop??  Maybe if 2-3 of these keepers getting almost no playing time at USL were given a chance in CPL maybe there would be a few surprises? Or at least a chance for them to develop?  I keep referencing USL level as I think that is probably what we will see right off the bat if it ever gets off the ground.  

[harrycoyster]

Just now, Ansem said:

There's room from improvement but he needs to play more often to improve. Athletically flawed? Then a lot of MLS keepers are...

I agree, but if we are going for quality in the CPL, why sign him over similarly priced USL goalkeepers like Tomas Gomez, Mitch Hildebrandt, and Cody Laurendi who are all clearly better quality. Only reason I can think of is that he's Canadian.

[Ansem]

Just now, harrycoyster said:

I agree, but if we are going for quality in the CPL, why sign him over similarly priced USL goalkeepers like Tomas Gomez, Mitch Hildebrandt, and Cody Laurendi who are all clearly better quality. Only reason I can think of is that he's Canadian.

Makes business sense to save your import spots for strikers and midfielders ahead of goalkeepers, don't you think?

Why are you condemning CPL to potentially have this approach when MLS was already doing it a long time ago for the most part.