CPL General

[ReedOnTheGrand]

3 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Maybe a compromise somewhere between those two scenarios could be found on this? If people aren't even talking we'll never know, unfortunately.

It's really not unfortunate. MLS 2 teams will continue to operate in USL as reserve sides and we can have independant sides in the CPL.

[Ansem]

4 minutes ago, Rheo said:

The MLS teams believe that they contribute greatly to Canada (rightfully so, although the level can definitely be debated).  My guess is that they have their ideas on how they can contribute to the CPL and those don't match up with the CPL's plans.  From there it's like the older wiser brother (MLS) getting annoyed/mad/frustrated (whichever word might apply) that the younger know it all brother won't listen to them and feel insulted.  No evidence to back this up just my theory based on what's been said by both sides.

Good analogy.

I'll add to it:

-"Maybe little brother decided to grow up and be a man". He has the 10th biggest bank account in the village, surely he's just as capable at making something out of his project than other individuals that have a fraction of his bank account.

Oh well... I tried. sorry if it makes no sense

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Just now, ReedOnTheGrand said:

It's really not unfortunate. MLS 2 teams will continue to operate in USL as reserve sides and we can have independant sides in the CPL.

What happens if there aren't enough markets available in the absence of three MLS subsidized franchises of whatever description that can support the 4500-5500 per game business plan? Doing that successfully in sub-500k metro areas is uncharted territory for pro soccer in North America (no pedantry about Mexico please).

[Ansem]

2 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

What happens if there aren't enough markets available in the absence of three MLS subsidized franchises of whatever description that can support the 4500-5500 per game business plan? Doing that successfully in sub-500k metro areas is uncharted territory for pro soccer in North America (no pedantry about Mexico please).

and adding MLS 2 clubs drawing 100 people a game is supposed to be better how exactly? I'll take my chances with an independent owner with a business plan and a clear vision over an existing owner that sees the league as a farm with a track record of doing absolutely nothing to market those teams...

Edited August 3, 2017 by Ansem

[ReedOnTheGrand]

Just now, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

What happens if there aren't enough markets available in the absence of three MLS subsidized franchises of whatever description that can support the 4500-5500 per game business plan? Doing that successfully in sub-500k metro areas is uncharted territory for pro soccer in North America (no pedantry about Mexico please).

So we bring in reserve sides that get 1k or less attendance LOL. Independant teams in those markets is what we will see. There's already talks of a Toronto team(maybe it will be named the Blizzard and your name won't make sense anymore) and a fraser valley team(I wouldn't be surprised to see them end up in Surrey)

[Ansem]

TFC and Vancouver sees CPL as their personal farms and we see how invested they are in promoting their reserved squads competing in a "farm league". (an embarrassment)

If they view CPL the same, that really doesn't look good, does it? They clearly have the attitude that they are entitled to run the place and do as they see fit, how are you going to make them build new infrastructure? rebrand? invest in marketing? Invest period to give the highest level of play? Help grow CPL?

Montreal? They would probably fold their team at some point and soon as Joey private bank accounts (not his family) starts to look smaller.

Then people are surprised at why fans are turned off at the idea. Those 3 have a horrible track record so far for the teams they are trying to get in CPL. CPL would be insanely incompetent to even entertain the idea of letting them in.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Ansem

[ironcub14]

Really, the biggest argument I've seen against having reserve teams in CPL over the months on this forum and on FB/Twitter boils down to something close to this: "If we host reserve teams in CPL, we look like a little brother unbefitting of D1 status"

It's disheartening how many Canadian soccer fans are self-conscious enough about the image of CPL that that is what they think. Yeah, the teams draw terrible attendance, but you know what, the teams are all subsidized anyways, and more fans in the GTA and Metro Vancouver should be striving to support these teams imo.

To me, the teams that Davies, Edwards, Froese, Bustos, Babouli, Chapman, Jay Hams, too many to name that have made their bones there, in addition to the ghost of FC Montreal that housed Tabla, Jackson-Hamel, etc etc, these are precisely the kind of teams we want in CPL, to further aid the development of CanM20, CanM23 and CanMNT.

For the record, I've stated numerous times that I want an independent CPL club in both the GTA and Metro Vancouver at the same time as TFCII and WFC2, to have two teams in CPL from both CMAs. I want to see CPL grow quickly with sustainable clubs, and those two USL teams, crappy attendance they may have, are subsidized and sustainable.

[Ansem]

I think we should have faith in Canadian fans across the country and give those owners (so far very credible and successful) a chance to realize their vision before thinking that it won't work.

As Paul Beirne said in a podcast:

"The owners will put their money where their mouth is, it's up to the fans to response"

If we're presented a top league product, Canadians will treat it as such.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Ansem

[ReedOnTheGrand]

21 minutes ago, ironcub14 said:

Really, the biggest argument I've seen against having reserve teams in CPL over the months on this forum and on FB/Twitter boils down to something close to this: "If we host reserve teams in CPL, we look like a little brother unbefitting of D1 status"

It's disheartening how many Canadian soccer fans are self-conscious enough about the image of CPL that that is what they think. Yeah, the teams draw terrible attendance, but you know what, the teams are all subsidized anyways, and more fans in the GTA and Metro Vancouver should be striving to support these teams imo.

To me, the teams that Davies, Edwards, Froese, Bustos, Babouli, Chapman, Jay Hams, too many to name that have made their bones there, in addition to the ghost of FC Montreal that housed Tabla, Jackson-Hamel, etc etc, these are precisely the kind of teams we want in CPL, to further aid the development of CanM20, CanM23 and CanMNT.

For the record, I've stated numerous times that I want an independent CPL club in both the GTA and Metro Vancouver at the same time as TFCII and WFC2, to have two teams in CPL from both CMAs. I want to see CPL grow quickly with sustainable clubs, and those two USL teams, crappy attendance they may have, are subsidized and sustainable.

There's really no benefit to having the 2 sides in the league. Also image is very important for many reasons like marketing and drawing casual fan interest. The 2 teams also simply wouldn't have a high enough level of play, they're bad at USL level and I don't think it's unrealistic to think CPL will be at that level pretty soon and above it in the future. There's a reason many people think many MLS 2 teams should be in the USL D3 when it comes around.  

[harrycoyster]

16 minutes ago, Ansem said:

If we're presented a top league product, Canadians will treat it as such.

But they won't be presenting a top league product. Even the best case scenarios would have us far below the EPL and MLS, the two leagues the average Canadian soccer fan is most familiar with. It's very likely the CPL won't be able to meet the level of the American second division sides for a few years.

[ReedOnTheGrand]

1 minute ago, harrycoyster said:

But they won't be presenting a top league product. Even the best case scenarios would have us far below the EPL and MLS, the two leagues the average Canadian soccer fan is most familiar with. It's very likely the CPL won't be able to meet the level of the American second division sides for a few years.

It's unlikely we won't be at USL level soon seeing as those teams are on tiny budgets and CPL will be able to offer many of those players larger contracts.  

[Ansem]

13 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

ut they won't be presenting a top league product.

Oh...you've seen the business plan? do share!

13 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Even the best case scenarios would have us far below the EPL and MLS,

Seriously? You can't put those 2 in the same sentence. Somewhere between USL/NASL and MLS at start is good for the league, especially for markets that aren't watching/following MLS.

Since CPL is staying out of the 3 big markets at first, why the hell are we still playing the "comparison game"? CPL is going into markets that barely watch and in many instances could care less about MLS.

Let CPL be it's own thing.

It's a good plan.

• Win the rest of Canada that aren't exposed to MLS first
• Get them hooked
• take the time to increase visibility, size, importance, media footprint to bait fans in the big 3 to get interested in the league
• grow the level of play over time
• Once the league is big enough, mainstream enough, enough quality, penetrate the 3 big cities

13 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

the two leagues the average Canadian soccer fan is most familiar with.

What's going to make or break the league is the league ability to draw outside of "Canadian soccer fans"

13 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

It's very likely the CPL won't be able to meet the level of the American second division sides for a few years.

So want to share the rosters that makes you believe that? I don't have them, hell I don't even know which teams will be where, so how do you know?

Edited August 3, 2017 by Ansem

[harrycoyster]

5 minutes ago, ReedOnTheGrand said:

It's unlikely we won't be at USL level soon seeing as those teams are on tiny budgets and CPL will be able to offer many of those players larger contracts.  

Only if they sign ~75% foreign players.

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

The biggest reason not to have MLS 2 teams is they don't draw supporters and would add nothing to the league. The league will benefit much more by having their own clubs with their own identities. No supporter woukd ever prioritise TFC2 over TFC but over time an independent club will draw it's own supporters and build it's own culture. And the extra competition will benifit everyone. 

All I see are scared MLS sides who know they have to step up their game or they will loose part of their market. They want protectionism and we want the right to choose. 

[Ansem]

7 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Only if they sign ~75% foreign players.

Beirne said no quota, remember? Just a cap on import. Allowing between 7-10 on the roster knowing they will most likely start most games is just as good, if not better than going overboard with the quotas. CPL should have the mean to get good internationals/raid NASL/USL/CONCACAF leagues of their best ones just for starters. So I don't see how possible it is to expect CPL to be below NASL and USL if they will have bigger salaries...Or my math doesn't add up

Didn't Neymar just proved that "Money talks"

 

Edited August 3, 2017 by Ansem

[harrycoyster]

Just now, Ansem said:

Beirne said no quota, remember? Just a cap on import. Allowing between 7-10 on the roster knowing they will most likely start most games is just as good, if not better than going overboard with the quotas. CPL should have the mean to get good internationals/raid NASL/USL of their best ones just for starters. So I don't see how possible it is to expect CPL to be below NASL and USL if they will have bigger salaries...

Or my math doesn't add up

The truth is we know very little about what the rosters are going to look like. I just don't see the point in parading the CPL around as "a Canadian league for Canadians" if we are then going to fill it with American starters and maybe get around to academies in a few years. That isn't a league I'm all that interested in.

My understanding has been that the league is foremost interested in giving Canadians a place to play, and if that means the level of play suffers because we gave minutes to a promising kid from L1O over a 27 year old USL journeyman then so be it.

[Ansem]

7 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

The truth is we know very little about what the rosters are going to look like. I just don't see the point in parading the CPL around as "a Canadian league for Canadians" if we are then going to fill it with American starters and maybe get around to academies in a few years. That isn't a league I'm all that interested in.

My understanding has been that the league is foremost interested in giving Canadians a place to play, and if that means the level of play suffers because we gave minutes to a promising kid from L1O over a 27 year old USL journeyman then so be it.

Those American imports better be good because they are about to find out how hard it is to make a league when you don't have domestic spots.

Not saying there won't be American imports but I suspect heavy on the Central and South American side with some Caribbeans. 

*why would Americans join with the massive expansion MLS will undergo

Edited August 3, 2017 by Ansem

[mpg_29]

Only way I could see it work is if the Canadian MLS teams just completely abandoned having a reserve team altogether (hasn't Montreal already done this?) and just start an independent team in CPL. 

Edited August 3, 2017 by mpg_29

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

Just now, mpg_29 said:

Only way I could see it work if the Canadian MLS teams just completely abandoned having a reserve team and just start an independent team in CPL. 

How would it be independent if it was owned by an MLS team? 

[ReedOnTheGrand]

1 minute ago, harrycoyster said:

Only if they sign ~75% foreign players.

Let's say 6 teams, 28 players each. 168 spots, so 25% would be 42 Canadians. There's going to be players making the jump up from L1O(especially former pro's who've been waiting around for CPL) and players who are top Canadian college prospects. Then you have the large amounts of Canadians in USL and playing in random leagues abroad. I think they'll be able to find 50 Canadians ready for that level on day 1. 

[mpg_29]

2 minutes ago, Greatest Cockney Rip Off said:

How would it be independent if it was owned by an MLS team? 

An "MLS team" isn't a person so it couldn't own anything...it be the owners of the team that would have to start it...

[harrycoyster]

10 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Those American imports better be good because they are about to find out how hard it is to make a league when you don't have domestic spots.

Not saying there won't be American imports but I suspect heavy on the Central and South American side with some Caribbeans. 

If the CPL is going to start at USL level, they are going to rely heavily on the US player base; especially in central defense and at keeper.

2 minutes ago, ReedOnTheGrand said:

Let's say 6 teams, 28 players each. 168 spots, so 25% would be 42 Canadians. There's going to be players making the jump up from L1O(especially former pro's who've been waiting around for CPL) and players who are top Canadian college prospects. Then you have the large amounts of Canadians in USL and playing in random leagues abroad. I think they'll be able to find 50 Canadians ready for that level on day 1. 

Are you happy with 42 Canadians and 126 foreigners in the CPL? Because I'm not. 

[ReedOnTheGrand]

Just now, harrycoyster said:

If the CPL is going to start at USL level, they are going to rely heavily on the US player base; especially in central defense and at keeper.

Are you happy with 42 Canadians and 126 foreigners in the CPL? Because I'm not. 

I said I think they could find 50 Canadians at that level DAY 1, so if 30% of players are Canadian day 1 with the goal of that being more I'd be happy. Hell if the bottom 5 spots or so are all Canadian we could be looking at 40% Canadian on the first day. I'd expect within 5 years or so for half the players or more to be Canadian, if it's 30%-40% on day 1 then that's fine. 

[Ansem]

5 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

If the CPL is going to start at USL level, they are going to rely heavily on the US player base; especially in central defense and at keeper.

Their intention is above D2. So, I don't see why they'd sign a D2 American ahead of a D2-D1 South American or Central American

[Ansem]

10 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Are you happy with 42 Canadians and 126 foreigners in the CPL? Because I'm not. 

And what you're suggesting is to do what MLS did at first. Heavy on domestics but the play was God awful....to the point they could draw a fly and almost folded. Then you're back to square one with no league 

Some sort of balance that's reflective of the current domestic pool is smart. That's what Beirne has been saying all along.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Ansem