CPL General

[Pat Carrasco]

According to Lenarduzzi in yesterday's interview, he claims that there is a sense of frustration by the lack of engagement that the CPL brass has towards the Canadian MLS clubs. Why would the CPL have such belligerence towards TFC, Whitecaps, and Impact? I'm assuming that the CPL has shut the door on TFC, Whitecaps, and Impact for reason that they still want to establish reserve squads in the CPL. Is this correct?

Edited August 3, 2017 by Pat Carrasco

[ReedOnTheGrand]

2 minutes ago, Pat Carrasco said:

According to Lenarduzzi in yesterday's interview, he claims that there is a sense of frustration by the lack of engagement that the CPL brass has towards the Canadian MLS clubs. Why would the CPL have such belligerence towards TFC, Whitecaps and Impact?

"They won't let us put farm teams in their league  feel bad for us"

[Zem]

4 minutes ago, Pat Carrasco said:

According to Lenarduzzi in yesterday's interview, he claims that there is a sense of frustration by the lack of engagement that the CPL brass has towards the Canadian MLS clubs. Why would the CPL have such belligerence towards TFC, Whitecaps and Impact?

I don't know where this says the CPL administration is being "belligerent", but I think it's been established that the MLS teams, TFC in particular, have a very different vision for the league than what the CPL brass and the CSA want, so it's not surprising that they aren't being consulted very much.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Zem

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

26 minutes ago, ReedOnTheGrand said:

"They won't let us put farm teams in their league  feel bad for us"

The league would probably already have had its launch announcement by now if they were on board. I can understand why outright B teams playing in substandard stadia to a few hundred spectators would be actively excluded. It's not so clear why the Reno 1868 FC and Rio Grande Valley FC Toros sort of scenarios could not have been explored:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reno_1868_FC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_Grande_Valley_FC_Toros

Edited August 3, 2017 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[-Hammer-]

7 minutes ago, Pat Carrasco said:

According to Lenarduzzi in yesterday's interview, he claims that there is a sense of frustration by the lack of engagement that the CPL brass has towards the Canadian MLS clubs. Why would the CPL have such belligerence towards TFC, Whitecaps, and Impact? I'm assuming that the CPL has shut the door on TFC, Whitecaps, and Impact for reason that they still want to establish reserve squads in the CPL. Is this correct?

It's strikes me as fairly clear why they don't want to engage the MLS clubs. The CPL knows they must not in any shape or form (especially at inception) make it seem this league is going to be a farm league. That means no affiliate agreements, that means no farm squads coming in.

So realistically, what other reasons would the two have to meet? MLS isn't going to cooperate with marketing of the league. Heck they barely even want to market the V-Cup. As far as I can tell, the only thing to talk about is nomencalture and understanding of player movement between the leagues, but a large degree of that is in FIFA's hands. What else is there to talk about?

[ReedOnTheGrand]

Just now, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The league would probably already have had its launch announcement if they were on board. I can understand why outright B teams playing in substandard stadia to a few hundred spectators would be actively excluded. It's not so clear why the Reno 1868 FC and Rio Grande Valley FC Toros sort of scenarios could not have been explored:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reno_1868_FC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_Grande_Valley_FC_Toros

If the realistic level of play(after a couple years I would say) is somewhere between USL/NASL and MLS than farm teams wouldn't provide that quality. It also de-legitimizes the CPL's D1 status by having farm teams. It's worth the extra year wait if the league has only independant clubs.   

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

I suspect it could be longer than one extra year if Ottawa and Edmonton also steer clear.

[Rheo]

2 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

It's not so clear why the Reno 1868 FC and Rio Grande Valley FC Toros sort of scenarios could not have been explored:

It may have been explored but it takes two groups to disagree.  Each have their own wants, needs and concerns and it's apparent that they don't match up.  Not a big deal in my opinion.  Like I've said there's room enough for everybody up here.

[Zem]

2 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

It's not so clear why the Reno 1868 FC and Rio Grande Valley FC Toros sort of scenarios could not have been explored:

That's because "hybrid affiliate teams" are still reserve teams, just with a fancy coat of paint and a seperate administration, just like many teams in the AHL. More importantly however, beacuse they share ownership with MLS teams they wouldn't be eligible to play in the Canadian Championship or in Champions League.

[nolbertos]

36 minutes ago, Pat Carrasco said:

According to Lenarduzzi in yesterday's interview, he claims that there is a sense of frustration by the lack of engagement that the CPL brass has towards the Canadian MLS clubs. Why would the CPL have such belligerence towards TFC, Whitecaps, and Impact? I'm assuming that the CPL has shut the door on TFC, Whitecaps, and Impact for reason that they still want to establish reserve squads in the CPL. Is this correct?

I think if the CPL wants to make create a war with all the CDN MLS teams, this league won't survive.  The Whitecaps are not MLSE, plus Lenarduzzi has experience running shoestring budgets in a USL setting, which probably, the CPL brass should've asked for his opinions rather than let MLSE entertained the thought of getting a TFCII team.  Either way I'll enjoy the popcorn which most likely will bring and now watch the MLS teams use there financial and marketing might against them.

Edited August 3, 2017 by nolbertos

[ReedOnTheGrand]

1 minute ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

I suspect it could be longer than one extra year if Ottawa and Edmonton also steer clear.

If 2018 is even being thought about right now then they'll be ready by 2019. 2 teams confirmed, 1 already working on a pop-up and another with with an ownership group and some sort of stadium plan. 

[Gordon]

2 minutes ago, nolbertos said:

I think if the CPL wants to make create a war with all the CDN MLS teams, this league won't survive.  The Whitecaps are not MLSE, plus Lenarduzzi has experience running shoestring budgets in a USL setting, which probably, the CPL brass should've asked for his opinions rather than let MLSE entertained the thought of getting a TFCII team.  Either way I'll enjoy the popcorn which most likely will bring and now watch the MLS teams use there financial and marketing might against them.

lol- MLS financial and marketing might - good one.

i am not sure what line of thinking gets us from lack of engagement with MLS to creating a war, but hey, who knows.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

9 minutes ago, Zem said:

That's because "hybrid affiliate teams" are still reserve teams, just with a fancy coat of paint and a seperate administration, just like many teams in the AHL. More importantly however, beacuse they share ownership with MLS teams they wouldn't be eligible to play in the Canadian Championship or in Champions League.

Have you actually read what is involved with those? They don't share ownership and the Ottawa Fury shows how an affiliate as opposed to a reserve team can still be eligible for the Canadian Championship and the Champions League. The intransigence on this stuff is getting like the ethnic names issue with the original CSL and in a similar way will make what was already a risky project for the investors involved less likely to achieve a successful outcome by actively excluding well-funded clubs that could help make the numbers reach the point where things are relatively stable.

Edited August 3, 2017 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[Kent]

4 minutes ago, nolbertos said:

I think if the CPL wants to make create a war with all the CDN MLS teams, this league won't survive.

I haven't heard the interview yet, but do we have any indication that CPL is creating a war with MLS teams? Is it just their existence that is grounds for war? It's a league that has nothing to do with MLS with the exception of playing against them in Voyageurs Cup games. The men's league I play in doesn't talk to MLS teams at all, because it has nothing to do with them. Does that mean my men's league is starting a war with MLS? Why does CPL have to bend to the wishes of MLS?

[ReedOnTheGrand]

1 minute ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Have you actually read what is involved with those? They don't share ownership and the Ottawa Fury shows how an affiliate as opposed to a reserve team can still be eligible for the Canadian Championship and the Champions League. The intransigence on this stuff is getting like the ethnic names issue with the original CSL and in a similar way will make what was already a risky project for the investors involved less likely to achieve a successful outcome.

The Ottawa Fury agreement is nowhere near the hybrid affiliate deals. Ottawa runs their team independently while a team like Reno has their team partly run by the MLS team. Having a loan agreement(which I don't see lasting that long since Ottawa doesn't play the loanees all that much) is not the same as having your team partly run by a parent team. 

[ironcub14]

I'd quickly say that, if you as a Voyageur or a Canadian soccer fan was concerned more about Canadian player development and Canadian content more than anything else when picturing what your CPL looks like, then you shouldn't have too much of an issue accepting the two teams that has housed more CanM20 and CanM23 content than anybody else over the last 5 years.

But due to the need to preserve the image of D1, and the lack of desire to support teams with admittedly terrible attendance and the optics it brings, and the aversion to reserve teams for some reason and the resentment towards Caps and MLSE, we are where we are with the two Canadian USL reserve teams. Count me as somebody who was really happy to hear about both the USL reserve teams when they were created and with CPL, with Canadian soccer development always in mind as the primary goal.

The only reason why reserve teams in Spain are banned from the top division is because of the collusion possibilities. I don't think many of us are realistically expecting the Caps or TFC to be in CPL anytime soon.

[Ansem]

11 minutes ago, nolbertos said:

I'll enjoy the popcorn which most likely will bring and now watch the MLS teams use there financial and marketing might against them.

Yeah because that's going to make a difference in Halifax, Winnipeg and Saskatchewan

[Rheo]

The MLS teams believe that they contribute greatly to Canada (rightfully so, although the level can definitely be debated).  My guess is that they have their ideas on how they can contribute to the CPL and those don't match up with the CPL's plans.  From there it's like the older wiser brother (MLS) getting annoyed/mad/frustrated (whichever word might apply) that the younger know it all brother won't listen to them and feel insulted.  No evidence to back this up just my theory based on what's been said by both sides.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

1 minute ago, ReedOnTheGrand said:

The Ottawa Fury agreement is nowhere near the hybrid affiliate deals. Ottawa runs their team independently while a team like Reno has their team partly run by the MLS team. Having a loan agreement(which I don't see lasting that long since Ottawa doesn't play the loanees all that much) is not the same as having your team partly run by a parent team. 

Maybe a compromise somewhere between those two scenarios could be found on this? If people aren't even talking we'll never know, unfortunately.

[ReedOnTheGrand]

11 minutes ago, nolbertos said:

I think if the CPL wants to make create a war with all the CDN MLS teams, this league won't survive.  The Whitecaps are not MLSE, plus Lenarduzzi has experience running shoestring budgets in a USL setting, which probably, the CPL brass should've asked for his opinions rather than let MLSE entertained the thought of getting a TFCII team.  Either way I'll enjoy the popcorn which most likely will bring and now watch the MLS teams use there financial and marketing might against them.

What makes you think they're waging war? because they won't bend over and kiss MLS team's asses and give them a reach around while they're at it. Also CPL has some CFL owner backing which currently still has larger media reach in Canada than MLS. 

[Ansem]

6 minutes ago, Kent said:

I haven't heard the interview yet, but do we have any indication that CPL is creating a war with MLS teams? Is it just their existence that is grounds for war? It's a league that has nothing to do with MLS with the exception of playing against them in Voyageurs Cup games. The men's league I play in doesn't talk to MLS teams at all, because it has nothing to do with them. Does that mean my men's league is starting a war with MLS? Why does CPL have to bend to the wishes of MLS?

Some people mistakes ending MLS monopoly in Canada in markets outside of it's clubs franchises, as "starting a war"

I need a drink

[ReedOnTheGrand]

3 minutes ago, ironcub14 said:

I'd quickly say that, if you as a Voyageur or a Canadian soccer fan was concerned more about Canadian player development and Canadian content more than anything else when picturing what your CPL looks like, then you shouldn't have too much of an issue accepting the two teams that has housed more CanM20 and CanM23 content than anybody else over the last 5 years.

But due to the need to preserve the image of D1, and the lack of desire to support teams with admittedly terrible attendance and the optics it brings, and the aversion to reserve teams for some reason and the resentment towards Caps and MLSE, we are where we are with the two Canadian USL reserve teams. Count me as somebody who was really happy to hear about both the USL reserve teams when they were created and with CPL, with Canadian soccer development always in mind as the primary goal.

The only reason why reserve teams in Spain are banned from the top division is because of the collusion possibilities. I don't think many of us are realistically expecting the Caps or TFC to be in CPL anytime soon.

The MLS 2 teams will continue to operate in USL where they struggle to perform, there's no need or want for them in the CPL.

[ironcub14]

Just now, ReedOnTheGrand said:

The MLS 2 teams will continue to operate in USL where they struggle to perform, there's no need or want for them in the CPL.

Yep thanks

[Zem]

25 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Have you actually read what is involved with those? They don't share ownership and the Ottawa Fury shows how an affiliate as opposed to a reserve team can still be eligible for the Canadian Championship and the Champions League. The intransigence on this stuff is getting like the ethnic names issue with the original CSL and in a similar way will make what was already a risky project for the investors involved less likely to achieve a successful outcome.

Sorry, I forgot how RGV operated and got confused.

I don't understand how you think a regular affiliation deal would help the league get off the ground though, normally all it does is provide loan players to the affiliate in return for first choice on players. In the early years I don't think there's any particular reason that would be useful or necessary since teams are likely going to get players on loan from MLS regardless, while a affiliations would make the CPL look minor league.

EDIT: I think I may not have entirely got what you were trying to say again; if you were arguing for setups like RGV where an independent ownership group owns a team operated by an MLS club, then pretty much echo my original comments, it's still essentially a reserve team masquerading as an independent club and I don't think it suits the image anyone wants for the CPL, besides lowering the level of competition in the league.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Zem

[Rheo]

Yeah I don't see where this "war" was ever started.  The MLS teams are miffed that the CPL won't work with them like they think they should and are mentioning it when asked but it's hardly a "war"