CPL General

[Kent]

1 hour ago, dsqpr said:

^ I think the original point was that the population at large in the US does not only not give a fig about MLS but does not even know that it exists! After 20 years of having a so-called "major league", one can only conclude they have a very long way to go.

And part of my point was that enough Americans know about it and care about it to have it keep growing in stature every year, sustain 20+ teams, and even fill a couple of stadiums with over 40k fans on a regular basis.

The argument for Canada that I think is being made is that MLS probably gets more time on Sportscentre here than in the US. As a result maybe more people in Canada know that it exists, but most still don’t care.

[Ansem]

7 minutes ago, Kent said:

And part of my point was that enough Americans know about it and care about it to have it keep growing in stature every year, sustain 20+ teams, and even fill a couple of stadiums with over 40k fans on a regular basis.

With a population of over 350M people...I would hope so.

7 minutes ago, Kent said:

The argument for Canada that I think is being made is that MLS probably gets more time on Sportscentre here than in the US. As a result maybe more people in Canada know that it exists, but most still don’t care.

It's a league that makes it very hard to relate too. The only sparks from that league to be honest is the Montreal-Toronto rivalry and deep runs in CCL. The rest of the league is very boring to me and obviously to most Canadians. Most Canadians have not watch an MLS game where there was no Canadian teams involved. I haven't yet I've watched NHL, NBA and MLB games with no Canadian teams as most Canadians...

Edited March 20, 2018 by Ansem

[Kent]

8 minutes ago, Ansem said:

With a population of over 350M people...I would hope so.

It's a league that makes it very hard to relate too. The only sparks from that league to be honest is the Montreal-Toronto rivalry and deep runs in CCL. The rest of the league is very boring to me and obviously to most Canadians.

Ok, so your argument that Canada is ahead of the US is because the only thing you care about in MLS is the biggest rivalry for your favourite team. I am going to file that under “slathered with a huge dose of bias”.

[Ansem]

13 minutes ago, Kent said:

Ok, so your argument that Canada is ahead of the US is because the only thing you care about in MLS is the biggest rivalry for your favourite team. I am going to file that under “slathered with a huge dose of bias”.

More Canadians (out of 36M) watched the playoff derby than Americans (out of over 350M) watched the other American semi-Finals

More Canadians watched the MLS finals than Americans for the entire United States...

Soccer-mad Canadians dig deep to see the World Cup

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/international-business/latin-american-business/soccer-mad-canadians-dig-deep-to-see-the-world-cup/article18234445/

 

Canada is unique in the way that the demand is huge but there's no supply .

Bias or not, numbers never lie...

Edited March 20, 2018 by Ansem

[MtlMario]

29 minutes ago, Ansem said:

More Canadians (out of 36M) watched the playoff derby than Americans (out of over 350M) watched the other American semi-Finals

More Canadians watched the MLS finals than Americans for the entire United States...

Soccer-mad Canadians dig deep to see the World Cup

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/international-business/latin-american-business/soccer-mad-canadians-dig-deep-to-see-the-world-cup/article18234445/

 

Canada is unique in the way that the demand is huge but there's no supply .

Bias or not, numbers never lie...

Without even checking, I don't believe Argentina has a population of 4.1 m. (the US population is closer to 325 m.)

[LAK]

I saw that too. It's about 43 million. I checked.

[Kent]

32 minutes ago, Ansem said:

More Canadians (out of 36M) watched the playoff derby than Americans (out of over 350M) watched the other American semi-Finals

More Canadians watched the MLS finals than Americans for the entire United States...

Soccer-mad Canadians dig deep to see the World Cup

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/international-business/latin-american-business/soccer-mad-canadians-dig-deep-to-see-the-world-cup/article18234445/

 

Canada is unique in the way that the demand is huge but there's no supply .

Bias or not, numbers never lie...

I figured ratings would come up. I honestly think it’s misleading. MLS is still basically a regional league. People don’t watch MLS Cup because they follow the league, they watch it because they are interested in one of the teams. I think the ratings in Canada for the last couple MLS Cups are outstanding, but I feel like the numbers are more like Seattle numbers vs Toronto numbers, rather than USA vs Canada. I’m sure many people will disagree but that is my perception of it. The following numbers are pulled out of my behind because it’s been a couple years since I looked at these kinds of numbers. TFC would draw something like 200k viewers for regular season games, and Montreal would draw like 150k viewers. Then they would play against each other (yes the playoffs were a different beast) and there would be 350k viewers. That’s a bit of an exaggeration but that is the kind of phenomenon that I think makes it deceptive to compare ratings and expect a 9-fold disparity between Canada and USA.

[Kent]

And as for the World Cup tickets sold stat, I’m not sure what I am supposed to be concluding from that. Is the last column leading you to believe that soccer is more popular/further along here than USA? If it is, then do you really believe it’s more popular/further along here than in Germany, France, and Mexico?

[Ansem]

36 minutes ago, Kent said:

And as for the World Cup tickets sold stat, I’m not sure what I am supposed to be concluding from that. Is the last column leading you to believe that soccer is more popular/further along here than USA? If it is, then do you really believe it’s more popular/further along here than in Germany, France, and Mexico?

The tickets aren't the main argument, merely a supporting evidence of soccer popularity in this nations, which may I remind you have failed to send a team since 1986, yet, we have remarkable stats in that regards.

More popular? yes

Further along? no, obviously not but let's not forget MLS was born thanks to hosting the 94 WC.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Ansem

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Kent said:

I figured ratings would come up. I honestly think it’s misleading. MLS is still basically a regional league. People don’t watch MLS Cup because they follow the league, they watch it because they are interested in one of the teams. I think the ratings in Canada for the last couple MLS Cups are outstanding, but I feel like the numbers are more like Seattle numbers vs Toronto numbers, rather than USA vs Canada. I’m sure many people will disagree but that is my perception of it. The following numbers are pulled out of my behind because it’s been a couple years since I looked at these kinds of numbers. TFC would draw something like 200k viewers for regular season games, and Montreal would draw like 150k viewers. Then they would play against each other (yes the playoffs were a different beast) and there would be 350k viewers. That’s a bit of an exaggeration but that is the kind of phenomenon that I think makes it deceptive to compare ratings and expect a 9-fold disparity between Canada and USA.

Are you saying that after 20 years of MLS, their national league, only people in the cities that have a team have any interest in it?

If so, that would be a shocking indictment of the popularity of football in the US!

I'm pretty sure that interest in football in Canada is much more widespread than that.

[Kent]

2 hours ago, dsqpr said:

Are you saying that after 20 years of MLS, their national league, only people in the cities that have a team have any interest in it?

If so, that would be a shocking indictment of the popularity of football in the US!

I'm pretty sure that interest in football in Canada is much more widespread than that.

Yes, that is what I’m saying, but I am arguing it isn’t different here. People will tune in across the USA if the Golden State Warriors play the Cleveland Cavaliers, or Yankees play the Red Sox, or any NFL game played in the evening. But if Seattle Sounders play TFC, or NYCFC plays LA Galaxy, or whatever match up you like, it isn’t a must see event. I haven’t seen any ratings for the 401 derby over the weekend, but I highly doubt it was a big draw in Winnipeg, or Calgary, etc.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

Yes, that is what I’m saying, but I am arguing it isn’t different here. People will tune in across the USA if the Golden State Warriors play the Cleveland Cavaliers, or Yankees play the Red Sox, or any NFL game played in the evening. But if Seattle Sounders play TFC, or NYCFC plays LA Galaxy, or whatever match up you like, it isn’t a must see event. I haven’t seen any ratings for the 401 derby over the weekend, but I highly doubt it was a big draw in Winnipeg, or Calgary, etc.

Agreed, but that is because it is MLS! Nobody outside MLS cares about MLS and that is a massive problem.

Branding matters. I think there will be a lot more general interest in a CPL 401 derby than an MLS 401 derby. I can't prove it though.

Edited March 21, 2018 by dsqpr

[Dub Narcotic]

Lenarduzzi says a possible CPL team in the Vancouver area was a factor in shutting down WFC2:

 

"""

In Vancouver, more localized factors played into the decision to do away with the reserve team. Team president Bob Lenarduzzi cited how the presence of the second team put a strain on team infrastructure. He added that the presumed start of the Canadian Premier League will likely result in another team in the Vancouver area, making for a more crowded market. The number of players breaking through to the first team was limited, so the decision was then made to partner with USL side Fresno FC, whose GM Frank Yallop has a longstanding relationship with Lenarduzzi. Four Vancouver players are currently on Fresno's roster.

"""

http://www.espn.com/soccer/major-league-soccer/19/blog/post/3427174/why-some-mls-clubs-arent-replicating-new-york-red-bulls-usl-reserve-model

[deschamp86]

34 minutes ago, Dub Narcotic said:

Lenarduzzi says a possible CPL team in the Vancouver area was a factor in shutting down WFC2:

 

"""

In Vancouver, more localized factors played into the decision to do away with the reserve team. Team president Bob Lenarduzzi cited how the presence of the second team put a strain on team infrastructure. He added that the presumed start of the Canadian Premier League will likely result in another team in the Vancouver area, making for a more crowded market. The number of players breaking through to the first team was limited, so the decision was then made to partner with USL side Fresno FC, whose GM Frank Yallop has a longstanding relationship with Lenarduzzi. Four Vancouver players are currently on Fresno's roster.

"""

http://www.espn.com/soccer/major-league-soccer/19/blog/post/3427174/why-some-mls-clubs-arent-replicating-new-york-red-bulls-usl-reserve-model

That guy is so full of crap. Can't stand him

[Bison44]

Funny how he didnt mention the incredible price tag WCFC2 had.  As it was mentioned many times on this board as being a big factor.  As for another BC team, does Bob know something that the rest of us doesnt??  

[Ansem]

7 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Funny how he didnt mention the incredible price tag WCFC2 had.  As it was mentioned many times on this board as being a big factor.  As for another BC team, does Bob know something that the rest of us doesnt??  

He definitely does. That's how business works and sport is no different

Edited March 21, 2018 by Ansem

[harrycoyster]

4 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Funny how he didnt mention the incredible price tag WCFC2 had.  As it was mentioned many times on this board as being a big factor.  As for another BC team, does Bob know something that the rest of us doesnt??  

He does mention it. "Team president Bob Lenarduzzi cited how the presence of the second team put a strain on team infrastructure."

The Caps have always claimed that the second team put a serious strain on their resources. They couldn't fund the second team, fully fund the academy and fund the new projects they are currently working on.

 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Was it not the cost of meeting D2 sanctioning standards that finally tipped the balance? The stadium in Langley would have needed a major upgrade to still be suitable and that's difficult to justify with crowds in the hundreds.

Edited March 21, 2018 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[SpecialK]

10 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

He does mention it. "Team president Bob Lenarduzzi cited how the presence of the second team put a strain on team infrastructure."

The Caps have always claimed that the second team put a serious strain on their resources. They couldn't fund the second team, fully fund the academy and fund the new projects they are currently working on.

 

 The Vancouver whitecaps are just cheap plain and simple ! But i don’t understand how they can’t get 40,000 plus for a game though, they have a good team and Canada’s  phenom.  

Edited March 21, 2018 by SpecialK

[Bison44]

Oh well my mistake then.  I didnt interpret "strain on infrastructure" as meaning its too expensive.  

[harrycoyster]

29 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Was it not the cost of meeting D2 sanctioning standards that finally tipped the balance? The stadium in Langley would have needed a major upgrade to still be suitable and that's difficult to justify with crowds in the hundreds.

Perhaps, but from what I've been told the costs made the team unsustainable from the get-go. The plan was to pull a few thousand fans, lose a couple million a season and push a few players up to the first team a year. The team never averaged more than 500 paying customers, lost around $5 million a season and the academy is only producing a few players a year that can play at USL level, let alone MLS.

Decision was made to spend a portion of the USL resources to change the academy model, split the would-be USL players between the loan, college and MLS routes based on talent, and perhaps start a different pro soccer team that could gain more traction in the market.

Reevaluate the situation when USLD3 launches.

Edited March 21, 2018 by harrycoyster

[Macksam]

On 2018-03-20 at 9:47 AM, Kent said:

Um... what? Let's examine two hypothetical countries.

Country A:
Top tier pro teams - 20, with 2 slated to start in the near future
2nd tier pro teams - 31 including top tier reserve teams
Top 3 Teams by average attendance - 48,200, 43,666, 25,022
FIFA World Ranking - 25
World Cup Appearances - 9
Best World Cup result - 3rd (if you want to discount early tournaments, let's say quarter finals)
Continental Championships* - 6

Country B:
Top tier pro teams - 3 in neighbouring country's league
2nd tier pro teams - 2 including a top tier reserve team
Top 3 teams by average attendance - 27,647, 21,416, 20,046
FIFA World ranking - 90
World Cup Appearances - 1
Best World Cup result - last place
Continental Championships* - 1 (I'm not counting 1985 since Mexico... I mean top ranked Country C, wasn't even involved)

Which country do you think is further along? Objectively in every meaningful way the choice is obvious. Any stat you can pick out that has Canada ahead of USA is horribly cherry picked, and any subjective thing you can mention is probably slathered with a huge dose of bias.

*Admittedly, the continental championship is a sham that is always hosted in Country A, but the reasoning is largely because they get the biggest crowds out to games.

Like DSPQR mentioned, I’m talking about the general population’s acceptance.

[toontownman]

I think the majority of the board should have a better understanding of this than me but even in 10 years here I have seen a huge shift not just in acceptance of soccer here but enjoyment and social conversation and knowledge about the sport. TSN and Sportsnet's expanded coverage has had huge part in this imo. There is pretty much always soccer on in the bars now. 

While it has been quicker accepted in the city, where I live, I also teach rurally in multiple schools and have seen a change. I wouldn't say predominantly but there is always at least a handful of kids that support a soccer team, come in with a shirt or play it. Playing Soccer is now the norm and accepted sport just as much as Hockey or Football among kids.  If anything the latter is the worst off in my time here(discounting baseball). Certainly in school yards and parks there is likely more soccer than anything else. I didn't necessarily find that the case when I first came over. 

 I can only imagine those that have always lived here have seen an even bigger shift than me.

[grasshopper1917]

5 hours ago, SpecialK said:

 The Vancouver whitecaps are just cheap plain and simple ! But i don’t understand how they can’t get 40,000 plus for a game though, they have a good team and Canada’s  phenom.  

Why cant you understand that?? Toronto who is the defending MLS cup champions, has possibly the best team in MLS history and possibly the best player playing in North America cant even get anywhere near 30,000 or a sellout so far this season. MLS is still largely a niche league - I cant imagine seeing 40,000 on a regular basis in any of the Canadian markets any time soon.

[Gopherbashi]

39 minutes ago, toontownman said:

I think the majority of the board should have a better understanding of this than me but even in 10 years here I have seen a huge shift not just in acceptance of soccer here but enjoyment and social conversation and knowledge about the sport. TSN and Sportsnet's expanded coverage has had huge part in this imo. There is pretty much always soccer on in the bars now. 

While it has been quicker accepted in the city, where I live, I also teach rurally in multiple schools and have seen a change. I wouldn't say predominantly but there is always at least a handful of kids that support a soccer team, come in with a shirt or play it. Playing Soccer is now the norm and accepted sport just as much as Hockey or Football among kids.  If anything the latter is the worst off in my time here(discounting baseball). Certainly in school yards and parks there is likely more soccer than anything else. I didn't necessarily find that the case when I first came over. 

 I can only imagine those that have always lived here have seen an even bigger shift than me.

I saw five kids playing a sport in the street last week.

First time in my life I've actually seen kids playing street soccer.  Not a hockey stick to be seen.

And this in backwater Simcoe County.  Times have changed.