CPL General

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

A city council motion was passed with some awkward looking amendments attached to appease NIMBYism. A final lease agreement has not been signed yet as far as I am aware.

http://www.metronews.ca/news/halifax/2017/06/20/halifax-council-says-yes-to-pitch-for-soccer-stadium.html

...Council voted unanimously in favour of an amended motion directing CAO Jacques Dubé to negotiate a lease to allow for a temporary stadium on the Wanderers Grounds....

...The temporary stadium would seat up to 7,000 people, and the municipality would retain full control over the land, leasing it to SEA for three years to use for a maximum of 14 matches in the first season.

...Coun. Waye Mason attached eight amendments to the staff recommendation after consulting with SEA. Those include requirements that the stands along Summer and Sackville streets would be removed at the end of the season, that events would be finished by 11 p.m., and that there’d be annual contract reviews to address any issues.

“If there are drunken football hooligans running the streets of Summer Street and Bell Road, the deal's off, we’ll cancel the deal,” Mason said at council on Tuesday...

http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/1485737-halifax-pop-up-soccer-stadium-plan-stalled

The pop-up soccer stadium at the Wanderers Grounds in Halifax remains in limbo, waiting for an agreement to be finalized.

...He said the municipality is waiting on Sports and Entertainment Atlantic (SEA) for updates to their proposal.

Earlier this week, SEA president Derek Martin said in an email that they have yet to finalize an agreement with the city to use the venue for professional soccer...

Edited February 25, 2018 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[HfxCeltic]

The Wanderers Ground agreement will get done. SEA has stated they have no intention on playing in a 24000 seat stadium outside downtown Halifax and that location and a “right-sized” stadium is what’s most important. CFL group said in the most recent release that the stadium won’t be in downtown Halifax and would cost 150-250 mil. If I had to bet on 1. A small footprint stadium in the heart of downtown funded privately vs. 2. a midsize stadium in an outskirts shopping district that would likely need public funds,  I’m betting on 1 every time -especially in Halifax where the #1 response to a stadium is “don’t use my taxes!”. Can’t stress enough that SEA has the perfect approach and that Wanderers Grounds is the absolutely PERFECT location for a stadium. Bias aside - I’m a lot more confident in CPL working in Halifax than I am in CFL ever even starting in Halifax.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Hopefully that's how it pans out, but what the CFL wants the CFL normally gets, because there appears to be a prevailing belief among the political elite that the league is central to Canada's national identity in some way, which helps open up access to all kinds of federal largesse which is no doubt what they are angling for at the moment on the stadium.

BMO Field in Toronto got government money for the initial build and later expansion to a significant extent because of the expectation that the Argos would eventually use it rather than because of TFC. Soccer would be an afterthought there by now if the crowd support hadn't been so (unexpectedly no doubt for most federal politicians in Ottawa even if possibly not in Joe Volpe's case) strong. Elsewhere, soccer cohabits with the CFL on turf in Vancouver and Ottawa at the moment in less than optimal circumstances because plans for soccer specific stadia with grass in an MLS context got actively blocked so there would only be one large stadium in the market that would be geared mainly towards the CFL:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa_Soccer_Stadium

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitecaps_Waterfront_Stadium

In Regina, the city council recently sent in the bulldozers where Taylor Field was concerned and ignored Joe Belan's proposal to retrofit it for soccer in a CanPL context:

http://thestarphoenix.com/sports/local-sports/groups-pro-soccer-push-includes-downtown-stadium-for-saskatoon

...Belan is also talking with Regina about putting the team there. One of his ideas was to use a large portion of the old Taylor Field, including the west grandstand. That would have saved him money in stadium construction, and the city money in demolition. The proposal didn’t pan out...

meaning that Saskatoon is now the preferred market in Saskatchewan terms, if they donate downtown land with a temporary pop-up stadium at Prairieland Park used in the interim that has yet to be approved/annouced.

How keen are the Roughriders to have a rival pro team in the province chasing the sports entertainment dollar in the summer and fall months playing a sport that is dominant over their own in youth registration terms? How keen are the would be "Atlantic" CFL franchise about having pro soccer around for similar reasons? Suspect the answer could easily be not very in both cases and that not all CFL owners share the outlook of the Ticats, Blue Bombers, MLSE and OSEG, so there could be all kinds of lobbying going on behind the scenes to outright block soccer's progress.

Think the fan group in Halifax needs to find ways to highlight strong grassroots interest in the arrival of pro soccer in terms of local media coverage rather than assuming that it will all work out for the best.

Edited February 25, 2018 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[dyslexic nam]

3 hours ago, HfxCeltic said:

The Wanderers Ground agreement will get done. SEA has stated they have no intention on playing in a 24000 seat stadium outside downtown Halifax and that location and a “right-sized” stadium is what’s most important. CFL group said in the most recent release that the stadium won’t be in downtown Halifax and would cost 150-250 mil. If I had to bet on 1. A small footprint stadium in the heart of downtown funded privately vs. 2. a midsize stadium in an outskirts shopping district that would likely need public funds,  I’m betting on 1 every time -especially in Halifax where the #1 response to a stadium is “don’t use my taxes!”. Can’t stress enough that SEA has the perfect approach and that Wanderers Grounds is the absolutely PERFECT location for a stadium. Bias aside - I’m a lot more confident in CPL working in Halifax than I am in CFL ever even starting in Halifax.

That's cool.  I was a bit worried when I saw the CFL announcement, but what you described is pretty reasonable.  I have enough familiarity with the sausage-making of decisions re public funding to know the massive difference for officials between the two concepts.  Throw I. The fact that CPL is a more immediate opportunity than a somewhat vague reference to future CFL expansion, and I think SEA should have some clear sailing.

[Bbeto]

3 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

BMO Field en Toronto obtuvo dinero del gobierno para la construcción inicial y posterior expansión en gran medida debido a la expectativa de que el Argos eventualmente lo usaría en lugar de TFC. A estas alturas, el fútbol ya no sería una alternativa si el apoyo de la multitud no hubiera sido tan fuerte (inesperadamente, sin duda para la mayoría de los políticos federales en Ottawa, aunque posiblemente no en el caso de Joe Volpe)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMO_Field

Toronto FC
Season Average: 2017: 27.394. 2016: 26.787

Toronto Argonauts

Season Average: 2017: 15.015. 2016: 16.380

Vancouver Whitecaps 2017 season average: 21.416. BC Lions 2017 season average: 19.858.

Montreal Impact 2017 season average 20.046. Montreal Alouettes 2017 season average: 19.522.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Whiskey tango foxtrot?

I am well aware of the fact that MLS outdraws the CFL in those three cities and very much welcome it. That's a big part of why at least some people associated with the CFL are likely to view more pro soccer teams emerging as a long term threat rather than an opportunity:

 

 

 

[LAK]

The CFL being outdrawn in MLS cities only occurred in the last couple of years (Toronto happened first), but attendance has always been a little cyclical in the CFL. I think TFC now has a big stronghold in the market and that likely won't change for a while, but Vancouver and Montreal are not as guaranteed to remain on top. The only reason the Impact outdrew the Alouettes last year is because of the game played at the Big O, otherwise their average would've actually been less than the Als. The Alouettes attendance has dipped a little because Montreal likes a winner, but it still remains consistent in that market. Vancouver is a bandwagon hopping town. The moment a team starts to win, they all jump on board. A few short seasons ago there were nearly 28,000 average per Lion games. They will bounce back, they always do.

I really do think that whoever establishes themselves first has a huge advantage in Halifax. That's why it's interesting that some CFL teams are a part of the CPL launch. They might be actually helping soccer to get a foothold in this country which could later prevent their own leagues expansion. I do think that's where Bob Young's heart is though. He loves his ticats, but he also loves soccer and wants to see it successful in Canada. There is a history in Halifax with the CFL going back to 1982...as well as exhibition games etc.

However, the plan SEA has for Halifax is a lot more realistic and since it doesn't require any sort of government money, it has the best chance to get established, and more specifically to get established first. There are a couple of differences in approach as well. The CFL team would have more of a regional approach, that ownership group have stated several times that they will be called the "Atlantic" whatevers. They will also be going for regional support. The other difference is that they will be doing it bigger than SEA will. This ownership group has more money and are willing to spend it. If they can figure out this stadium/development centre thing, it will be world class and that's the reputation the atlantic team would have.

[dyslexic nam]

52 minutes ago, LAK said:

The CFL being outdrawn in MLS cities only occurred in the last couple of years (Toronto happened first), but attendance has always been a little cyclical in the CFL. I think TFC now has a big stronghold in the market and that likely won't change for a while, but Vancouver and Montreal are not as guaranteed to remain on top. The only reason the Impact outdrew the Alouettes last year is because of the game played at the Big O, otherwise their average would've actually been less than the Als. The Alouettes attendance has dipped a little because Montreal likes a winner, but it still remains consistent in that market. Vancouver is a bandwagon hopping town. The moment a team starts to win, they all jump on board. A few short seasons ago there were nearly 28,000 average per Lion games. They will bounce back, they always do.

I really do think that whoever establishes themselves first has a huge advantage in Halifax. That's why it's interesting that some CFL teams are a part of the CPL launch. They might be actually helping soccer to get a foothold in this country which could later prevent their own leagues expansion. I do think that's where Bob Young's heart is though. He loves his ticats, but he also loves soccer and wants to see it successful in Canada. There is a history in Halifax with the CFL going back to 1982...as well as exhibition games etc.

However, the plan SEA has for Halifax is a lot more realistic and since it doesn't require any sort of government money, it has the best chance to get established, and more specifically to get established first. There are a couple of differences in approach as well. The CFL team would have more of a regional approach, that ownership group have stated several times that they will be called the "Atlantic" whatevers. They will also be going for regional support. The other difference is that they will be doing it bigger than SEA will. This ownership group has more money and are willing to spend it. If they can figure out this stadium/development centre thing, it will be world class and that's the reputation the atlantic team would have.

I get the idea that they may invest bigger, but I am pretty cautious about how big CFL would be initially.  If people are skeptical of SEA's ability to consistently draw 5000 to CPL in Halifax, the idea of attracting 4-5 times that amount for CFL seems at least equally dubious.  I recognize the CFL is a more recognizable product with a lot more media presence, but that seems like a big ask in the context of building a 24k seat stadium. 

[dbailey62]

6 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I get the idea that they may invest bigger, but I am pretty cautious about how big CFL would be initially.  If people are skeptical of SEA's ability to consistently draw 5000 to CPL in Halifax, the idea of attracting 4-5 times that amount for CFL seems at least equally dubious.  I recognize the CFL is a more recognizable product with a lot more media presence, but that seems like a big ask in the context of building a 24k seat stadium. 

Reasonable points but I'd counter with the point that many people have been watching CFL all their lives. For man, it has been part of their fabric for decades even without a home team to call their own. 

While they would have to handle the market with care and ensure they don't over price their tickets, I don't believe a 20k average is out of the question. 

CPL is very different obviously. It's brand new and it's understandable that people might be more skeptical about it although hopefully they'll show up anyway! 

 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

1 hour ago, LAK said:

...That's why it's interesting that some CFL teams are a part of the CPL launch. They might be actually helping soccer to get a foothold in this country which could later prevent their own leagues expansion. I do think that's where Bob Young's heart is though. He loves his ticats, but he also loves soccer and wants to see it successful in Canada...

Another way of viewing it is that if you control the possible future competition it isn't anything like as a big threat to you as you are hedging your bets. In Hamilton's case they used soccer at the PanAm games to get their new stadium built and were on the hook to pursue some kind of soccer legacy afterwards. With Ottawa promises were made about pro soccer when Melnyk's rival stadium was blocked from being built so a low budget team is being run that can paper the house with cheap youth soccer groups sales and probably still make some decent coin back through access to profits from concessions. I suspect that's also how the Winnipeg Blue Bombers expect to be able to do OK.

CFL teams in Regina and Halifax as smaller more marginals markets can't use that approach so easily and have more to fear from having a rival sport right on their doorstep given they need to do exceptionally well in terms of cornering the market in entertainment dollar terms to be viable in CFL terms. It's not so much what happens initially that would be the concern because the CFL would blow any relatively low budget pro soccer team out of the water initially on attendance and TV ratings in markets like that, the grounds for concern would be the longer term trends if the soccer team hangs in there through the early years until it gains traction and starts to slowly grow in terms of the on field playing standards and spectator interest, given the CFL already skews very heavily towards the 50+ demographic while soccer does the reverse.

The CFL is not the most captivating of sports leagues and is potentially vulnerable to competition as it has a track record of struggling to attract new fans amongst recent immigrants compared to truly major league operations like the NFL and NHL. It's worth bearing in mind that before the Blue Jays arrived in Toronto the Argos sometimes averaged over 40,000 per game and were taken very seriously by Toronto sports fans. Now it is very difficult in surveys to find anyone under 40 in the GTA that regards themselves as a hardcore fan. Give people a viable alternative and things could slowly change over the next couple of generations even in the Prairies cities that are now viewed as rock solid CFL markets, particularly when the grassroots recreational level has already shifted so heavily towards soccer in a way that was unimiginable back in the 1980s before the youth soccer registration boom really took off in a big way after the 1994 World Cup.

Edited February 25, 2018 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[Rheo]

Article on the FC Edmonton supporters effort teaming up with the micro brewery for a craft beer

http://www.metronews.ca/news/edmonton/2018/02/25/another-round-soccer-fans-hope-beer-partnership-can-help-revive-soccer-team.html

[HfxCeltic]

Looks like April 7 may be the yay or nay date for the Fath's reviving FCE. I wonder how the 1000 season ticket benchmark is looking.

[Rheo]

And another article on the Edmonton group

https://juneof86.com/2018/02/23/faths-looking-for-support-for-cpl-in-edmonton/

[1996]

Small stadiums is the way too go, that’s why I’m hoping we can get most teams in 8 to 10 000 seat stadiums as much as possible. The MLS figure this out pretty quickly and slowly but surely most of their teams are now in smaller stadiums suited more for the attendances the league gets, where 60000  or more seat stadiums were too big for MLS teams when they started,  25000 or more seat stadiums are too big right now for CPL teams hopefully in the future they will be the perfect size when the league hopefully grows and gets more popular, but for now if possible I hope most teams can play in smaller stadiums fill those first and then move on to bigger stadium,  Ive been to an Ottawa Fury game and even with 7 to 8000  people there that 20000 seat stadium looked so empty and lacked atmosphere not because of the people not being into the game but because the big stadium sucked the atmosphere out of the game, now you put 7 to 8000 people in a nice small 10000 seat stadium and it’s a different ball game, anyone who lives in Toronto and knows Lamport Stadium a nice small 10000 seat stadium, imagine 7 to 8000 people in there and imagine how great the atmosphere would be, it would look great being there and look even better on TV, you want this CPL to work then try if all possible to play in smaller stadiums and then I think it will have a chance, but playing in the big stadiums like the ones in Hamilton, Ottawa and Winnipeg and Regina will not be a good look even if 10000 people show up unfortunately.

[grande]

Hey guys, I've been away for about a week and a half. Has any actual news come out, or is this thread just four pages longer with the same bickering?

[dbailey62]

19 minutes ago, grande said:

Hey guys, I've been away for about a week and a half. Has any actual news come out, or is this thread just four pages longer with the same bickering?

Welllllll, let's see ..... we can kill the rumour of Arsene Wenger coaching CPL Toronto ...... how's that?

[dbailey62]

2 hours ago, 1996 said:

Small stadiums is the way too go, that’s why I’m hoping we can get most teams in 8 to 10 000 seat stadiums as much as possible. The MLS figure this out pretty quickly and slowly but surely most of their teams are now in smaller stadiums suited more for the attendances the league gets, where 60000  or more seat stadiums were too big for MLS teams when they started,  25000 or more seat stadiums are too big right now for CPL teams hopefully in the future they will be the perfect size when the league hopefully grows and gets more popular, but for now if possible I hope most teams can play in smaller stadiums fill those first and then move on to bigger stadium,  Ive been to an Ottawa Fury game and even with 7 to 8000  people there that 20000 seat stadium looked so empty and lacked atmosphere not because of the people not being into the game but because the big stadium sucked the atmosphere out of the game, now you put 7 to 8000 people in a nice small 10000 seat stadium and it’s a different ball game, anyone who lives in Toronto and knows Lamport Stadium a nice small 10000 seat stadium, imagine 7 to 8000 people in there and imagine how great the atmosphere would be, it would look great being there and look even better on TV, you want this CPL to work then try if all possible to play in smaller stadiums and then I think it will have a chance, but playing in the big stadiums like the ones in Hamilton, Ottawa and Winnipeg and Regina will not be a good look even if 10000 people show up unfortunately.

We already know how great the atmosphere in Lamport with 7-8k for a game.  That's what the Wolfpack draw! About 25 years ago I was in there for a match hosted by the local NSL Greek team "Toronto Panhellenic" vs a touring "Olympiakos" and the place was packed.  The buzz was wonderful. It can be a great venue and with some upgrades, it would be the perfect CPL Toronto home.

As for other cities, it all depends on what's out there.  We pretty much know that Hamilton will use Tim Horton's Field. Winnipeg will be in Investor's Group Field. Both are 20k PLUS facilities. It may feel like Ottawa but hey, that's life. If Ottawa joins the league, we know where they'll play.

It's not like there are many options. I suppose Hamilton could play at Mac but it's a little bit too small for what the league hopes to achieve.  

For TV, they'll have to bias seating into the opposing stand lower level even if it means the near stand is empty. That's not great for in stadium atmosphere as such but it will look reasonable on TV. 

If Edmonton is in, we know they'll play at Clarke, hopefully an improved Clarke. Commonwealth is a non-starter.  We all know that.

Sometimes reality gets in the way.

[Rheo]

Delete

Edited February 26, 2018 by Rheo

[CDNFootballer]

7 hours ago, 1996 said:

Small stadiums is the way too go, that’s why I’m hoping we can get most teams in 8 to 10 000 seat stadiums as much as possible. The MLS figure this out pretty quickly and slowly but surely most of their teams are now in smaller stadiums suited more for the attendances the league gets, where 60000  or more seat stadiums were too big for MLS teams when they started,  25000 or more seat stadiums are too big right now for CPL teams hopefully in the future they will be the perfect size when the league hopefully grows and gets more popular, but for now if possible I hope most teams can play in smaller stadiums fill those first and then move on to bigger stadium,  Ive been to an Ottawa Fury game and even with 7 to 8000  people there that 20000 seat stadium looked so empty and lacked atmosphere not because of the people not being into the game but because the big stadium sucked the atmosphere out of the game, now you put 7 to 8000 people in a nice small 10000 seat stadium and it’s a different ball game, anyone who lives in Toronto and knows Lamport Stadium a nice small 10000 seat stadium, imagine 7 to 8000 people in there and imagine how great the atmosphere would be, it would look great being there and look even better on TV, you want this CPL to work then try if all possible to play in smaller stadiums and then I think it will have a chance, but playing in the big stadiums like the ones in Hamilton, Ottawa and Winnipeg and Regina will not be a good look even if 10000 people show up unfortunately.

With TFC's minor league Usl team playing at Lamport wonder if there is still room/dates for a CPL Toronto club to also use the facility? Likely that TFC moved the reserve team there to partly block the stadium for a CPL team to use as they want to monopolize the Toronto market for them.

[toontownman]

5 hours ago, dbailey62 said:

Welllllll, let's see ..... we can kill the rumour of Arsene Wenger coaching CPL Toronto ...... how's that?

Never say never. 

2 hours ago, Rheo said:

Delete

Churlish. 

 

But couldn't resist.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

16 hours ago, 1996 said:

Small stadiums is the way too go, that’s why I’m hoping we can get most teams in 8 to 10 000 seat stadiums as much as possible. The MLS figure this out pretty quickly and slowly but surely most of their teams are now in smaller stadiums suited more for the attendances the league gets, where 60000  or more seat stadiums were too big for MLS teams when they started,  25000 or more seat stadiums are too big right now...

The MLS team that bucked the trend was the New England Revolution and that was because the soccer team was owned by the same group as the NFL team meaning they had favourable access to gameday revenue streams and were not paying an exhorbitant per game rental fee. Hamilton, Winnipeg and Ottawa appear to fit that scenario, although there's still the dispute with the City of Hamilton to resolve over whether the original lease deal for soccer still holds in Hamilton or whether it has expired.

[Rheo]

11 hours ago, toontownman said:

Churlish. 

 

But couldn't resist.

As an out wrestling fan on the board I did not put delete on to inspire this awesomeness lol.  Just posted in the wrong board

[gator]

20 hours ago, dbailey62 said:

We already know how great the atmosphere in Lamport with 7-8k for a game.  That's what the Wolfpack draw! About 25 years ago I was in there for a match hosted by the local NSL Greek team "Toronto Panhellenic" vs a touring "Olympiakos" and the place was packed.  The buzz was wonderful. It can be a great venue and with some upgrades, it would be the perfect CPL Toronto home.

As for other cities, it all depends on what's out there.  We pretty much know that Hamilton will use Tim Horton's Field. Winnipeg will be in Investor's Group Field. Both are 20k PLUS facilities. It may feel like Ottawa but hey, that's life. If Ottawa joins the league, we know where they'll play.

It's not like there are many options. I suppose Hamilton could play at Mac but it's a little bit too small for what the league hopes to achieve.  

For TV, they'll have to bias seating into the opposing stand lower level even if it means the near stand is empty. That's not great for in stadium atmosphere as such but it will look reasonable on TV. 

If Edmonton is in, we know they'll play at Clarke, hopefully an improved Clarke. Commonwealth is a non-starter.  We all know that.

Sometimes reality gets in the way.

We may have to play at Mac if the stadium dispute doesn't get settled, I did read that the 2 sides are close and things should be sorted soon!

Edit: Apparently the 2 sides are still far apart, there is a discussion on this upcoming after 10:30 on 900 CHML, I will post if anything new is discussed!

 

 

Edited February 27, 2018 by gator

[1996]

35 minutes ago, gator said:

We may have to play at Mac if the stadium dispute doesn't get settled, I did read that the 2 sides are close and things should be sorted soon!

Just out of curiosity, what does Mac hold and how many sides does the stadium have in terms of stands?

[gator]

12 minutes ago, 1996 said:

Just out of curiosity, what does Mac hold and how many sides does the stadium have in terms of stands?

The stadium has 6000 permanent seats on 2 sides but easily expands to 12000!