CPL General

[matty]

3 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Would you not classify the Panamanian and Costa Rican leagues as MLS/Liga MX feeders? Panama qualified for the World Cup starting 5 MLS players and 4 ex-MLS players. Not that I'm in favor of TFCIII playing in CPL, but I think getting more players into MLS should be a goal of CPL.

So do I but I don't think a partnership is needed to do this. Stand-out players will make the move the traditional way. I think CPL will increase the number of Canadians MLS teams will be willing to use IRS on in the US.

Edited November 29, 2017 by matty

[Ansem]

4 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Would you not classify the Panamanian and Costa Rican leagues as MLS/Liga MX feeders? Panama qualified for the World Cup starting 5 MLS players and 4 ex-MLS players. Not that I'm in favor of TFCIII playing in CPL, but I think getting more players into MLS should be a goal of CPL.

I won't repeat Matty's point. He clearly explains it. Just regular transactions will do. No need to integrate CPL into the MLS/USSF system

[Ansem]

7 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

I think getting more players into MLS should be a goal of CPL.

The goal is to develop starts and make $$$

The goal should be getting more players to Europe, not necessarily MLS. I'd rather they go to Liga MX like Cavallini did.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Ansem

[Ansem]

11 minutes ago, matty said:

That said MLS is top 15

Money-wise, sure. Talent wise, no

[Complete Homer]

3 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Would you not classify the Panamanian and Costa Rican leagues as MLS/Liga MX feeders? Panama qualified for the World Cup starting 5 MLS players and 4 ex-MLS players. Not that I'm in favor of TFCIII playing in CPL, but I think getting more players into MLS should be a goal of CPL.

Getting more players everywhere should be the goal. MLS is one destination, bit so is Europe and even SA. 

One of the most valuable parts of CPL is keeping talented kids in the sport by making pro soccer a little less of a pipe dream. Make a clear pathway to becoming a pro and be willing to sell players without holding them hostage.

MLS has a problem with limiting potential by holding onto players into their mid 20s. For that, among other reasons, I don't think interlocking with USSF is beneficial to development

[matty]

Just now, Ansem said:

The goal is to develop starts and make $$$

The goal should be getting more players to Europe, not necessarily MLS

Europe, Mexico, MLS, Saudi Premier, J-League, South Africa, Brazil. Basically the CPL should be working to get Canadian talent to the point stronger leagues want them.

[matty]

Just now, Ansem said:

Money-wise, sure. Talent wise, no

I respectfully disagree

[harrycoyster]

7 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Money-wise, sure. Talent wise, no

If we use Trasfermarkt league player values as the metric, MLS is the 14th best league in the world. Somewhere between 10th and 12th in revenue.

I'd say that's pretty close to correct. 

[Ansem]

2 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

If we use Trasfermarkt league player values as the metric, MLS is the 14th best league in the world. Somewhere between 10th and 12th in revenue.

I'd say that's pretty close to correct. 

i still disagree talent wise. just my opinion

[Chad_Impact]

Do you guys expect the CPL to occupy any CCL spots once it starts up? Or will the Voyageurs cup still be the only way for Canadian teams to make it. 

[matty]

13 minutes ago, Chad_Impact said:

Do you guys expect the CPL to occupy any CCL spots once it starts up? Or will the Voyageurs cup still be the only way for Canadian teams to make it. 

I think we'll see a spot in CONCACAF League (the fall tournament)

Edited November 29, 2017 by matty

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

1 hour ago, Soefeia said:

...Simply put, so many in Canadian Soccer think their opinions are more worthy than they really are...

This is a fan messageboard for expressing opinions. It's totally normal in any soccer nation for there to be constant fierce debate online. If there is a flaw with Canadian soccer, it's the absence of that a lot of the time and there being too much deference to people in authority, who are often severely underqualified for the posts that they hold.

[Macksam]

1 hour ago, Soefeia said:

You see, this is brilliant because you've managed to reinforce my point. Instead of engaging with it you've deflected. 

The main point is that from a position of almost no information, you've criticized a group of individuals for a particular decision as if you know better, which you don't. You've then compounded your error by suggesting that this is ego driven while ignoring the hypocracy of that statement. 

Whether or not TFC II is branded as such or rebranded as an independent but affiliated team is not a particularly material argument to whether or not you know better than CPL ownership and leadership. 

Whether or not Tom Fath is one of the 10, is not a particularly material argument to whether or not you know better than CPL ownership and leadership. 

These are red herrings. 

Simply put, so many in Canadian Soccer think their opinions are more worthy than they really are. It is the culture and a barrier to anything anyone tries to do to move forward. You are just one of thousands in that regard. Unless a critical mass of people can overcome this culture, we will never get any better. 

I suspect you will want to further defend your position. Save your breath unless you are actually willing to engage with the central thesis. And I'll go back to happily lurking, working, not commenting, and trying to keep my own opinions humble and based in fact. 

You’re on a roll.

[Macksam]

1 hour ago, matty said:

Basically the CPL should be working to get Canadian talent to the point stronger leagues want them.

That’s one goal. Also, not mutually exclusive to this very goal, I think another end goal is to develop some big clubs in the country that can pay reasonably good salaries. Cities like Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, Winnipeg, Quebec City and of course Hamilton among others have the capacity to support clubs in the 20,000 to 30,000 average attendance range and it isn’t going to happen with MLS. I obviously don’t expect this to happen right away with the CPL but establishing the framework and infrastructure so this can be achieved 20-30 years down the line is key. Forming a bunch of FC Groningen type clubs across the country would be a reasonable aspirational goal IMO. 

FC Groningen = 

Edited November 29, 2017 by Macksam

[ReedOnTheGrand]

21 minutes ago, Macksam said:

That’s one goal. Also, not mutually exclusive to this very goal, I think another end goal is to develop some big clubs in the country that can pay reasonably good salaries. Cities like Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, Winnipeg, Quebec City and of course Hamilton among others have the capacity to support clubs in the 20,000 to 30,000 average attendance range and it isn’t going to happen with MLS. I obviously don’t expect this to happen right away with the CPL but establishing the framework and infrastructure so this can be achieved 20-30 years down the line is key. Forming a bunch of FC Groningen type clubs across the country would be a reasonable aspirational goal IMO. 

FC Groningen = 

Exactly, developing players for the national team is important but so is growing soccer culture in this country. This great sport of ours is about more than just being the best or even being good it's about bringing the community together. As for second teams being in the league I've always been against it for multiple reasons. 1st it's bad for the league's image, it would set it clearly in minor league territory. 2nd, I don't think they would be anywhere near competitive, VWC2 and TFC2 were USL bottom feeders this year and rumor is many USL teams have total payrolls short of 700k a year. 3rd, I believe it would hurt other teams, what casual fans wants to see their local team play a 2nd team. 4th having independent teams in MLS markets would push competition more, while second teams in the league would prop up the MLS teams monopoly in the market. 

 

However I believe at the youth level MLS teams and future CPL teams should compete together. For example I'd like to see Ontario CPL teams to put senior academy sides in L1O like TFC3 is. I'd also like to see the impact's oldest academy team along with any CPL  teams in Quebec(or Ottawa) to play in the PLSQ. I'd like to see similar things happen around the country with regional youth focused senior leagues(like L1O) being home to smaller market senior teams and pro teams 2nd/academy teams. 

[Kent]

29 minutes ago, ReedOnTheGrand said:

However I believe at the youth level MLS teams and future CPL teams should compete together. For example I'd like to see Ontario CPL teams to put senior academy sides in L1O like TFC3 is. I'd also like to see the impact's oldest academy team along with any CPL  teams in Quebec(or Ottawa) to play in the PLSQ. I'd like to see similar things happen around the country with regional youth focused senior leagues(like L1O) being home to smaller market senior teams and pro teams 2nd/academy teams. 

I would love for this to happen. I'm still disappointed in the Impact for not having a team in PLSQ. And I'm disappointed in the Whitecaps and Impact for not having their youth teams in local leagues. It's in there best interests to grow the local game, and it would help with scouting as well I'm sure, so it's disappointing that they play in American leagues instead. Does anybody know how often the youth teams play local clubs? Like in tournaments or at least friendlies or something? I hope it happens, but I don't know one way or the other.

Anyways, to bring this back around to CPL, I'm hoping with CPL teams sprinkled across the country it will help build the development infrastructure across the country. Perhaps create more urgency/motivation to have more regional D3 leagues like L1O and PLSQ, and hopefully raise the level of top level youth leagues bit by bit across the country.

[harrycoyster]

10 minutes ago, Kent said:

I would love for this to happen. I'm still disappointed in the Impact for not having a team in PLSQ. And I'm disappointed in the Whitecaps and Impact for not having their youth teams in local leagues. It's in there best interests to grow the local game, and it would help with scouting as well I'm sure, so it's disappointing that they play in American leagues instead. Does anybody know how often the youth teams play local clubs? Like in tournaments or at least friendlies or something? I hope it happens, but I don't know one way or the other.

It depends on the age group and the talent group. The younger teams play local teams on weekdays and USSDA teams on weekends. while the older kids only play in the USSDA and hold scrimmages with local teams on occasion. Going forward, the Caps are planning on having multiple elite teams at each age group, the top team in each age group will play in the USSDA and the second/third teams in local leagues. The Caps have numerous satellite teams that do play solely in local leagues, and play at talent identification events twice a year to see if the Vancouver based team can use any of the talent. 

The Caps academy in general works differently than TFCs because the youth landscape is so different. Just playing the main youth teams against local talent doesn't accomplish much, as the talent gap is huge. The Caps have nearly complete coverage of youth players in Western Canada and basically have the "Western Canada u(age) All-Star Team" at every level. Just look at the current u17 roster. Maybe half the team is even from Vancouver. 

 

[Ansem]

5 hours ago, Chad_Impact said:

Do you guys expect the CPL to occupy any CCL spots once it starts up?

I think that's the intention (getting 2 spots overall)

[ChrisinOrleans]

17 hours ago, Kent said:

I would love for this to happen. I'm still disappointed in the Impact for not having a team in PLSQ. And I'm disappointed in the Whitecaps and Impact for not having their youth teams in local leagues. It's in there best interests to grow the local game, and it would help with scouting as well I'm sure, so it's disappointing that they play in American leagues instead. Does anybody know how often the youth teams play local clubs? Like in tournaments or at least friendlies or something? I hope it happens, but I don't know one way or the other.

L'Impact de Montréal host youth identification tournaments quite regularly, namely the Mauro Biello Tournament, which focuses on U-13 teams. However, there are at least three youth academy tournaments in Montréal that draw from all over Québec, Eastern Ontario and Acadia quite regularly. Their U-13, U-15 and U-17 teams all play in local leagues in Québec, as well. 

The Impact do not maintain an official team in the PLSQ, but have considerable connections to every team in the league. Indeed, almost every player, coach, and prospect in the league has some connection to l'Impact. Why would the Impact limit themselves to a single team when almost the entire league exists to provide the academy with prospects? 

Likewise, the Impact have an official affiliation with Ottawa, and have had an unofficial one since 2014. The first coach of the Fury, Marc Dos Santos, maintained quite a few ties to IMFC, and brought in a lot of Montréal connections. Players like Rudolph-Mayard, Davies and Vallée were all signed to OFFC, and came from IMFC's ranks. Furthermore, the Impact loaned players to OFFC in both 2014 (Messoudi) and 2015 (Gagnon-Laparé), while Ottawa was the landing pad for Maxim Tissot in 2016. The 2017 relationship saw several loans back and forth. 

The Impact are doing what is best for the Impact, and have helped dozens of players reach new levels. Simply because they're not funding an established team of their own doesn't mean they are not contributing.  

[Big_M]

'' Their U-13, U-15 and U-17 teams all play in local leagues in Québec, as well. ''

Wrong

[xcalibre]

I haven't been naive enough to imagine the USSF gives a shit about our interests. I just think getting in that pyramid is better than nothing.

Imagine being 18 and looking for a pro or semi-pro deal, and the CSA telling ready-and-willing organizations prepared to join PDL/USL to just wait, it's coming. Boom, 18 roster spots gone this year. Oh, we need to wait another year? 18 more spots gone.

Then when it doesn't come at all (watch this space), we'll have lost what? 3, 4 years plus all the momentum those organizations had locally? And I'm the naive one?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

It's actually up to eight years now on the lost momentum thing, unfortunately. Three groups were said to be looking at USL Pro D3 level back in 2010 when Tony Waiters was hired by USL to facilitate Canadian expansion and the CSA decided to slap the moratorium on it. Two of the three cities involved seldom feature when possible CanPL locations are discussed.

Edited December 1, 2017 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[yellowsweatygorilla]

6 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

It's actually up to eight years now on the lost momentum thing, unfortunately. Three groups were said to be looking at USL Pro D3 level back in 2010 when Tony Waiters was hired by USL to facilitate Canadian expansion and the CSA decided to slap the moratorium on it. Two of the three cities involved seldom feature when possible CanPL locations are discussed.

What were these cities? I thought Hamilton was always one of them and maybe Calgary?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

The other two were London and Victoria which both had strong PDL teams drawing into four figures at the time.

[ted]

On 11/29/2017 at 9:52 AM, Ansem said:

MLS isn't a world top league. 

[snip]

I'm being specific to the business side of it. 

 

On 11/29/2017 at 10:06 AM, Ansem said:

Money-wise, sure. Talent wise, no

Now you are contradicting yourself,  and at the same time, arguing something that is irrelevant.

You say you are being, "specific to the business side of it" and yet you admit that MLS is a,  "top league"  money-wise. No matter how you classify leagues around the world there is a valid case for MLS as being top twenty and even, depending on the metrics, top ten.  Does it make their players the best in the world, HELL NO,  but it certainly places them above us and the CanPL.

And there is where the argument is irrelevant to my point: they don't have to be the best league in the world for the CanPL to feed into them. All MLS has to do is pay players more than CanPL does. It's a simple business reality and the only way to really measure a players "worth" unfortunately.