CPL General

[Ansem]

11 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The soft launch in 2018 with a hardcore of six that they were clearly ramping up for with all the office hires would have helped to bolster the arguments for stadium builds in markets like Saskatoon and K/W if it went well and if they had Ottawa and Edmonton on board all they needed was Halifax to close the pop-up deal and either Surrey (Swangard temporarily) or a GTA team (OSA Soccer Centre temporarily) to get the ball rolling.  No Edmonton makes putting an original six together to provide a good first impression considerably more difficult, and no Ottawa on top of that would probably be the coup de grace. The Fury's last statement made it sound like they were still very much on the fence at best and I don't think the CFL to Halifax stuff that has suddenly surfaced will do anything good for pro soccer's prospects there in the short to medium term, because it is the near complete absence of rival summer pro sports in smaller sub-750k type markets that provides a possible niche for a league like CanPL moving forward if they were ever able to get over the initial hurdle and prove it can work.

the more you talk, the less it seems you have to bring to the table except pessimism, cynicism and advocating for total submission to the USSF.

When you're being asked how CPL being MLS personal farms helps us qualify for a World Cup, you have nothing to say nor anything to bring to the conversation. Reading you is truly getting old

[Ansem]

4 minutes ago, matty said:

I agree the failure to deliver the soft launch could delay some projects but still 2 teams are a go and others seem to be healthy for 2019. FCE seem to want to see what the league has to offer come 2019 and USL seem to want Fury in CPL.

I don't see the CFL hurting CPL in Halifax at all. Assuming the league runs April to October, it'll have 3 months without CFL to deal with and will likely not have conflicting dates and have a year ahead of the CFL team to build a fanbase. The only real impact is maybe both have to share a stadium.

Even if it launch in 2020, if it's done right and fully ready (modular stadiums, TV contracts, sponsorship), it's the right thing to do.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what the league wants. If they can't get their stadium built, sponsorship and TV deals before 2020, there's little they can do about it. They made it so far because it's obvious they have a business plans and deep pocket investors bought into it. I think the rest has a lot to do with stuff that's out of their control at this time.

[matty]

Just now, Ansem said:

Even if it launch in 2020, if it's done right and fully ready (modular stadiums, TV contracts, sponsorship), it's the right thing to do.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what the league wants. If they can't get their stadium built, sponsorship and TV deals before 2020, there's little they can do about it. They made it so far because it's obvious they have a business plans and deep pocket investors bought into it. I think the rest has a lot to do with stuff that's out of their control at this time.

Oh for sure if stadium construction is approved but can't happen till like 2019 then that's fine. The issue with 2020 is if they have no real developments.

The deep pockets are why I'd say the league is likely to happen. TV is the main reason why its survival is questionable

[Kent]

I'm sure not all affiliate deals are alike, but would MLS affiliate deals for a couple CPL teams even make much of a difference? Based on the very little I have heard about the Ottawa/Montreal partnership it sounds like basically Ottawa has to take a few (4 I think?) Montreal players on loan. Presumably Montreal pays all or part of their salary, so it's a few free players for Ottawa. Also from what I've heard it sounds like Ottawa wasn't playing those players, so in that particular case it's a few free players on the bench.

Is that really what is making the difference between launching in 2018 and potentially not launching at all? Otherwise, if BBTB is talking about a heavier investment from MLS teams, what would make us think they would keep up that investment after a couple of years? Montreal and Vancouver have already proven their development teams are far from immune to collapse, so if CPL had gone the "help us MLS" route then perhaps we would launch sooner, but then have the rug pulled out from under us.

[ReedOnTheGrand]

21 hours ago, Bison44 said:

Ummm, didnt the talk really heat up with Rollins in 2014 with a start date 2016/2017??  Then moved to 2018 (to take advantage of WC interest), then now of course 2019.  With the way clubs have been closing in canada in the last year or so by spring they'll be saying maybe 2020.  

I wasn't deeply involved in 2014 so I didn't know 16/17 was ever even discussed. 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

In 2014:

http://www.soccernewsday.com/canada/a/1900/how-the-cfl-nasl-rumored-venture-could-help-canada

Shortly after even bigger news hit the internet, when Duane Rollins at Canadian Soccer News announced that the North American Soccer League, the Canadian Soccer Association and the Canadian Football League are planning a joint venture in the form of a Canadian division with the NASL with most CFL teams creating a soccer team of their own.

Edited November 28, 2017 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[Macksam]

On ‎2017‎-‎11‎-‎27 at 3:54 PM, ChrisinOrleans said:

You're right. A league featuring a Ballon d'Or winner like Kaka, and internationally renowned superstars like Kaka, Di Vaio, Schweinsteiger, Drogba, Julio Caesar (before he got wrecked in Brazil), David Accam, Giovani Dos Santos, Jon Dos Santos, Dzemali, Ciman, Pirlo, David Villa, Dempsey and Diego Valeri must be minor league. 

The NASL is a completely similar product. It's only the presentation that is different. 

While those individuals helped in the short term, they didn't make any of those clubs sustainable in the long term. The professionalism is the first and most important thing that builds and grows the fan base. What turned Kansas City from a bush league looking operation to a well supported team? Hint: it wasn't a DP.

 

On ‎2017‎-‎11‎-‎27 at 3:31 PM, harrycoyster said:

I had no idea the quality of a product is directly proportionate to its TV rating! The Big Bang Theory and that Kardashian show are way better than I think they are apparently!

lol, those shows are like the edible equivalents to junk food.

[Soefeia]

On 2017-11-27 at 5:45 PM, xcalibre said:

If anyone legitimately trusts the CSA to run this thing, you have more faith than I do

The CSA is not running it. CPL Admin and ownership groups are running it so any delays are of their own making. 

[Soefeia]

On 2017-11-28 at 12:27 AM, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

If they really weren't interested in Canada they could have refused to sanction any Canadian teams from ever playing in their leagues.

Are you purposefully missing the point? Or just casting doubt in an underhanded manner?

I read earlier that you make your living evaluating quality of some kind. Interestingly, I do also. Oddly, you seem to have difficulty with applying a critical lense to your own arguments. They are often poor, and based on suppositions and vague historical experiences that have serious flaws when trying to translate them to the context with which we are currently dealing. Would you mind sharing what you do?

Here is an example in case you're confused. 

- CPL leadership and ownership groups consist of many successful business people individually worth 8, 9, and 10 figures. It consists of many successful sports business executives. It consists of people with broadcast properties. It consists of multiple former Canadian international level players. It consists of people who are technical directors of successful soccer clubs. 

- They believe that putting MLS reserve teams in CPL would be a fatal mistake. 

- You disagree. 

- You accuse them of ego. 

Just a bit of cognitive dissonance there, no?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Did FC Edmonton count as one of the ten "leadership and ownership groups" given Tom Fath is said to have been attending these meetings "religiously"? If we accept you have genuine inside knowledge and are not some random poster pretending to be something they are not, a big part of the point I was making was that interested parties like FC Edmonton going to hear about what is happening are not quite the same thing as "investors" waiting eagerly to be approved for franchise rights and sign on the dotted line. Beyond that I haven't argued for reserve teams and have made it clear that I think a compromise solution would need to be found that avoids TFC II type branding, so don't see any cognitive dissonance on that.

Edited November 29, 2017 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[Ansem]

13 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Beyond that I haven't argued for reserve teams and have made it clear that I think a compromise solution would need to be found that avoids TFC II type branding, so don't see any cognitive dissonance on that.

How does your solution helps Canada's soccer program? How does it help develop future players capable at performing internationally.

Explain it to us

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

I would sooner see Whitecaps academy players moving to a CanPL affiliate than one in Fresno when they sign their first pro contract. Think the USL are crazy to have reserve teams branded as such but the Whitecaps farming out half a dozen or so players to a team in a city like Victoria for a complete season would help lessen the salary bill in a smaller market. Most wouldn't make it to MLS and would keep playing in CanPL, if they are good enough to merit another contract. That way the MLS academies and CanPL work synergistically rather than at cross-purposes.  

Edited November 29, 2017 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[Ansem]

How does reducing CPL to become MLS feeding system helps Canada soccer achieve its goal of consistently reach the Hex, qualify for a world cup and compete at that level?

Explain it to us

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Already did. Look up what synergistically means.

[matty]

7 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

I would sooner see Whitecaps academy players moving to a CanPL affiliate than one in Fresno when they sign their first pro contract. Think the USL are crazy to have reserve teams branded as such but the Whitecaps farming out half a dozen or so players to a team in a city like Victoria for a complete season would help lessen the salary bill in a smaller market. Most wouldn't make it to MLS and would keep playing in CanPL, if they are good enough to merit another contract. That way the MLS academies and CanPL work synergistically rather than at cross-purposes.  

Can't what you're talking about mostly be done without full on partnerships. AKA traditional loan deals between MLS and CPL?

[matty]

3 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Already did. Look up what synergistically means.

No what you described is working for not working together.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

3 minutes ago, matty said:

Can't what you're talking about mostly be done without full on partnerships. AKA traditional loan deals between MLS and CPL?

Maybe, that's what they should be negotiating about rather than being two warring camps pushing in different directions. The sport as a whole makes the most progress when all the stakeholders are pushing in the same direction. Maybe MLS are to blame as well to an extent. It takes two to tango as the saying goes.

[Macksam]

45 minutes ago, Soefeia said:

Are you purposefully missing the point? Or just casting doubt in an underhanded manner?

I read earlier that you make your living evaluating quality of some kind. Interestingly, I do also. Oddly, you seem to have difficulty with applying a critical lense to your own arguments. They are often poor, and based on suppositions and vague historical experiences that have serious flaws when trying to translate them to the context with which we are currently dealing.

QFT 

[matty]

5 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Maybe, that's what they should be negotiating about rather than being two warring camps pushing in different directions. The sport as a whole makes the most progress when all the stakeholders are pushing in the same direction. Maybe MLS are to blame as well to an extent. It takes two to tango as the saying goes.

From what we've heard USL has been friendly to the CPL while MLS reps have been dismissive of the idea. It seems likely that CPL is game to work with people but the MLS see them as a threat similar to NASL.

Based on everything the problem seems to be on MLS's end not the CPL's. It also raises the question of the MLS's relationship to CSA as the CSA appear to favour 2 top leagues free of each other for the most part.

Edited November 29, 2017 by matty

[ted]

Just now, Ansem said:

How does reducing CPL to become MLS feeding system helps Canada soccer achieve its goal of consistently reach the Hex, qualify for a world cup and compete at that level?

Explain it to us

Wait what kind of question is that?!?!

I agree that the CanPL should not include "reserve teams.  That said, the point of the CanPL is to give Canadian players a pro league to develop in or to earn a living as international journeymen. It must be a, "feeding system", for the top leagues in the world and like it or not, MLS will pay more at the top end and will thus be one of the leagues that we feed into.

If anyone thinks we are going to develop players totally within the CanPL that can compete at the World Cup they are delusional. Not just delusional of the potential capacity to develop players of the CanPL, but delusional about the way EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD develops players. Is there a single team that made the Quarterfinals of the last World Cup with a squad of players ENTIRELY playing in their home country? 

 

[Macksam]

Maybe MLS are to blame as well? I think that is pretty evident with the whole Bill Manning saying TFC 3 should be in the CPL fiasco. 

[Soefeia]

28 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Did FC Edmonton count as one of the ten "leadership and ownership groups" given Tom Fath is said to have been attending these meetings "religiously"? If we accept you have genuine inside knowledge and are not some random poster pretending to be something they are not, a big part of the point I was making was that interested parties like FC Edmonton going to hear about what is happening are not quite the same thing as "investors" waiting eagerly to be approved for franchise rights and sign on the dotted line. Beyond that I haven't argued for reserve teams and have made it clear that I think a compromise solution would need to be found that avoids TFC II type branding, so don't see any cognitive dissonance on that.

You see, this is brilliant because you've managed to reinforce my point. Instead of engaging with it you've deflected. 

The main point is that from a position of almost no information, you've criticized a group of individuals for a particular decision as if you know better, which you don't. You've then compounded your error by suggesting that this is ego driven while ignoring the hypocracy of that statement. 

Whether or not TFC II is branded as such or rebranded as an independent but affiliated team is not a particularly material argument to whether or not you know better than CPL ownership and leadership. 

Whether or not Tom Fath is one of the 10, is not a particularly material argument to whether or not you know better than CPL ownership and leadership. 

These are red herrings. 

Simply put, so many in Canadian Soccer think their opinions are more worthy than they really are. It is the culture and a barrier to anything anyone tries to do to move forward. You are just one of thousands in that regard. Unless a critical mass of people can overcome this culture, we will never get any better. 

I suspect you will want to further defend your position. Save your breath unless you are actually willing to engage with the central thesis. And I'll go back to happily lurking, working, not commenting, and trying to keep my own opinions humble and based in fact. 

[Ansem]

9 minutes ago, ted said:

Wait what kind of question is that?!?!

I agree that the CanPL should not include "reserve teams.  That said, the point of the CanPL is to give Canadian players a pro league to develop in or to earn a living as international journeymen. It must be a, "feeding system", for the top leagues in the world and like it or not, MLS will pay more at the top end and will thus be one of the leagues that we feed into.

If anyone thinks we are going to develop players totally within the CanPL that can compete at the World Cup they are delusional. Not just delusional of the potential capacity to develop players of the CanPL, but delusional about the way EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD develops players. Is there a single team that made the Quarterfinals of the last World Cup with a squad of players ENTIRELY playing in their home country? 

 

MLS isn't a world top league. 

To answer your question, I know CPL won't be the main reason that Canada becomes a powerhouse, however like BBTB wants to happen, you're killing the league's ceiling in terms of growth, revenues, sponsorship... all factors that would in term allow the league to grow to the point where more money would come into it, more teams could be born, even another division. That's also means that someday, we could afford more expensive talents and increase the overall talent pool.

I'm being specific to the business side of it. 

[matty]

7 minutes ago, Ansem said:

MLS isn't a world top league. 

To answer your question, I know CPL won't be the main reason that Canada becomes a powerhouse, however like BBTB wants to happen, you're killing the league's ceiling in terms of growth, revenues, sponsorship... all factors that would in term allow the league to grow to the point where more money would come into it, more teams could be born, even another division. That's also means that someday, we could afford more expensive talents and increase the overall talent pool.

I'm being specific to the business side of it. 

Ansem is right here. Being a farm league would limit interest in the league and that would cause a lack of revenue. Simply doing normal loans without a formal partnership would be better for the CPL than having partnerships that cause the CPL to be part of a MLS developmental program.

Also while seemingly minor, the CPL needs to get a spot in the CONCACAF League for it's champion. Getting in that sort of cup would do a lot for the league money and rep wise.

That said MLS is top 15

Edited November 29, 2017 by matty

[harrycoyster]

27 minutes ago, Ansem said:

How does reducing CPL to become MLS feeding system helps Canada soccer achieve its goal of consistently reach the Hex, qualify for a world cup and compete at that level?

Explain it to us

Would you not classify the Panamanian and Costa Rican leagues as MLS/Liga MX feeders? Panama qualified for the World Cup starting 5 MLS players and 4 ex-MLS players. Not that I'm in favor of TFCIII playing in CPL, but I think getting more players into MLS should be a goal of CPL.