CPL General

[Kingston]

9 hours ago, Mihairokov said:

I know everyone loves to hyperfixate on attendance because it's the only crumb of a number we're given but there are so many more extentuating factors for a club's bottomline than how many tickets are distributed for a match.

Totally.  And there are exceptions.  But it's a pretty good long term guide.

[Aird25]

10 hours ago, Watchmen said:

Because the attitude of the mayor/council has generally seemed to be that they wouldn't care if the team walked.  I'm not saying they're hoping for it, but rather that they don't seem inclined to give way too much on the negotiation front.  Given that, I don't think Pacific would jeopardize the situation if they were already in a sustainable position.  Rather, I think they're trying to squeeze a bit more out of the city in order to get closer to a sustainable one.

Has it? They've made it clear that they had hoped for a 5 year deal, they're paying for additional design renderings for expansion, and they're going to hold a referendum to guage supoort. They're not as gung ho as the previous mayor, but that's the same across the city for all development and spending, not just the stadium. Regardless, I don't think Pacific are jeopardizing anything. Langford aren't about to say no to them as the main tenant. They've talked about the importance of the club for the community economics.

I still don't understand how this says anything about whether they are making or losing money currently. A better stadium and training centre deal will earn them more money each year and in increase the value of club if they decide to sell in the future, regardless of whether they're in the black or red.

[SoccMan]

12 hours ago, Mihairokov said:

Just don't tell that to the Pittsburgh Riverhounds, I guess. 😋

I know everyone loves to hyperfixate on attendance because it's the only crumb of a number we're given but there are so many more extentuating factors for a club's bottomline than how many tickets are distributed for a match.

What’s the story with the Pittsburg Riverhounds ? 

[Kingston]

12 minutes ago, SoccMan said:

What’s the story with the Pittsburg Riverhounds ? 

They are a pro team that has survived in various pro leagues since the late 1990s despite typically drawing an average of about 3000 fans (sometimes considerably less, although last year over 5000 for the first time ever).

[Watchmen]

2 hours ago, Aird25 said:

Has it? They've made it clear that they had hoped for a 5 year deal, they're paying for additional design renderings for expansion, and they're going to hold a referendum to guage supoort. They're not as gung ho as the previous mayor, but that's the same across the city for all development and spending, not just the stadium. Regardless, I don't think Pacific are jeopardizing anything. Langford aren't about to say no to them as the main tenant. They've talked about the importance of the club for the community economics.

I still don't understand how this says anything about whether they are making or losing money currently. A better stadium and training centre deal will earn them more money each year and in increase the value of club if they decide to sell in the future, regardless of whether they're in the black or red.

If a deal fell through with Langford, where would Pacific move? Because my understanding is that there's no other real viable option (unless RAF is on the table, but we seem to be constantly told it's not). So if a deal doesn't get done, Langford loses their main tenant but doesn't have to spend on additional costs (while still using it for minor events). Whereas for Pacific, if a deal doesn't get done they simply fold. If your business is already profitable, you don't risk folding.

[SpursFlu]

Why would Langford kick out Pacific? Am I missing something?

Edited September 4 by SpursFlu

[Aird25]

16 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

Why would Langford kick out Pacific? Am I missing something?

No, you're not missing anything. Pacific are the ones pushing for a better deal, not Langford.

Edited September 4 by Aird25

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

4 hours ago, Kingston said:

Yes.  This is the old CSL, A-League, old version of the USL, and whatever other acronyms I'm forgetting now.  Those teams that drew at least 5000 tended to continue on through all the wreckage of the different leagues while those that didn't, didn't.

...and losing the Mediapro deal is unlikely to have helped where the break even crowd level is concerned.

Comments from Wade Miller in Winnipeg in relatively recent times before Mediapro's exit hinted strongly that an average of 5000 or so is what the Blue Bombers wanted to see happening to justify keeping the Valour on board under their ownership. Back in the 1987-92 CSL era, 4500 was mentioned a lot as being where things needed to be at a bare minimum to make the finances work, so it was no huge surprise when Paul Beirne started talking prior to CanPL's launch in broadly similar terms on where crowds would ultimately need to be with CanPL.

Overseas in countries where teams can travel almost exclusively by bus rather than air to away games and where there tend to be more lucrative broadcast and sponsorship deals thanks to soccer being the main spectator sport, crowds as low as 2000 or so can be the minimum level of interest that is needed to keep the lights on where fully professional clubs are concerned. Unlike in Canada, it's usually easy for a club to turn semi-professional and find their appropriate level in the league system pyramid when crowds levels are not sufficient to sustain full-time professionalism. Every club finds its appropriate level over time. In Canada, clubs fold outright in the context of air-travel format leagues in the absence of a European style pyramid league system and when enough have done so the entire deck of cards caves in.

The problem with making a domestic pro league fly in Canada (pun intended) in a coast-to-coast format hemmed in by the 49th parallel, the Great Lakes etc has always been putting together a minimum of eight clubs drawing the crowds levels needed to be financially stable long term when soccer isn't the main spectator sport and media interest is lukewarm at best. CanPL has one club that's almost certainly there on that (i.e Halifax), three that sometimes are but to varying extents often/usually still don't draw the necessary crowd levels (Ottawa, Calgary and Hamilton), and four that are clearly well short of where things need to be to an extent that low seven figure financial losses can be expected each season as has been demonstrated by the Blue Bomber/Valour accounts that are released publicly.

Edited September 4 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

44 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

If a deal fell through with Langford, where would Pacific move? Because my understanding is that there's no other real viable option (unless RAF is on the table, but we seem to be constantly told it's not)...

There's a reason why a game was played in Kelowna this summer by one of the SixFive Sports owned teams. The intended message from that was about as subtle as a sledgehammer.

Edited September 4 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Mihairokov]

2 hours ago, SoccMan said:

What’s the story with the Pittsburg Riverhounds ? 

Small stadium with a great view of Pittsburgh from across the river. Really want to catch a match there!

[Kingston]

45 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Overseas in countries where teams can travel almost exclusively by bus rather than air to away games and where there tend to be more lucrative broadcast and sponsorship deals thanks to soccer being the main spectator sport, crowds as low as 2000 or so can be the minimum level of interest that is needed to keep the lights on where fully professional clubs are concerned. Unlike in Canada, it's usually easy for a club to turn semi-professional and find their appropriate level in the league system pyramid when crowds levels are not sufficient to sustain full-time professionalism. Every club finds its appropriate level over time. In Canada, clubs fold outright in the context of air-travel format leagues in the absence of a European style pyramid league system and when enough have done so the entire deck of cards caves in.

Given our population and the level of interest in soccer, we are in an awkward spot that doesn't let us emulate the pyramid that is so common in other countries.  We have a small number of larger cities that can support pro teams. 

We have a few pockets with sufficient population density to support local amateur leagues with very low budgets. 

There is no way to have a D2, middle of the pyramid league, however, because we don't have enough population base/interest for a local league between L1 and the CPL.

So the lack of a pyramid isn't some sort of choice, it's a reality enforced by geography and the level of soccer interest in Canada.  Come back in 20 years or so and maybe things will be different.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

At no point in that post did I advocate a European style pyramid be implemented in a Canadian context. Hockey found a format that is actually sustainable in a CHL context by not trying to force a European style balanced home and away single table league format onto the relatively sparsely populated continental scale Canadian geography by instead having bus-travel oriented regional conferences and divisions. 

Edited September 4 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[SpursFlu]

3 hours ago, Aird25 said:

No, you're not missing anything. Pacific are the ones pushing for a better deal, not Langford.

Yah thats what I would think. I'd also think the success of the CFL Victoria puts pressure also. The Lions owner is from Victoria and I would have to think his wheels are turning as far as a CFL team on the Island 

[Aird25]

2 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

Yah thats what I would think. I'd also think the success of the CFL Victoria puts pressure also. The Lions owner is from Victoria and I would have to think his wheels are turning as far as a CFL team on the Island 

Yeah, that was supposed to come to Starlight at first when the old council was in power. I think more than a few people were upset that they lost it

[SpursFlu]

43 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Yeah, that was supposed to come to Starlight at first when the old council was in power. I think more than a few people were upset that they lost it

I've only been to Starlight a few times. Was in Langford last month and was impressed with the growth. Reminds me of what's going on in Langley. Could Starlight expand to 20k for a CFL team? My question is more around the surrounding infrastructure. I know it's right off the hwy but the roads still felt tight. RAP couldn't do it permanently. It's essentially one of those old residential areas. Nice area but would never allow the development 

[Mihairokov]

17 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

Could Starlight expand to 20k for a CFL team?

Are the Lions relocating? The CFL's expansion ask is more difficult than CPL's.

[SpursFlu]

1 hour ago, Mihairokov said:

Are the Lions relocating? The CFL's expansion ask is more difficult than CPL's.

No the Lions are pretty popular in Vancouver right now. Instead of banging their head against the wall in Halifax, they should just focus on Victoria. To make it take more sense they should team up. Pacific and CFL

Edited September 5 by SpursFlu

[SoccMan]

9 hours ago, Mihairokov said:

Small stadium with a great view of Pittsburgh from across the river. Really want to catch a match there!

Oh yes you are right it is a nice little stadium with a nice view of the city . Would be a nice road trip, also that Detroit team plays in a nice little stadium in an old part of Detroit and get good crowds, Danny Dichio is their coach now .

Edited September 5 by SoccMan

[SoccMan]

2 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

No the Lions are pretty popular in Vancouver right now. Instead of banging their head against the wall in Halifax, they should just focus on Victoria. To make it take more sense they should team up. Pacific and CFL

CFL and soccer played at the same stadiums are just not compatible in terms of a better soccer friendly stadium due to the big CFL end zones . NFL stadiums with their much smaller end zones are actually a better fit for soccer . Moreover, like I’ve said many times on this board , the more teams we have playing in Starlight , Cavalry and Halifax type stadiums the better . Hopefully Pacific gets things sorted out and stays at Starlight and maybe get their stadium expanded by adding seats on the other side . Every time I watch a game on TV from Starlight it looks like a great place to watch a game live .

[Big_M]

you dont expand when attendance is going down and is way under capacity

[Sonny Heung-min]

15 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

...and losing the Mediapro deal is unlikely to have helped where the break even crowd level is concerned.

Comments from Wade Miller in Winnipeg in relatively recent times before Mediapro's exit hinted strongly that an average of 5000 or so is what the Blue Bombers wanted to see happening to justify keeping the Valour on board under their ownership. Back in the 1987-92 CSL era, 4500 was mentioned a lot as being where things needed to be at a bare minimum to make the finances work, so it was no huge surprise when Paul Beirne started talking prior to CanPL's launch in broadly similar terms on where crowds would ultimately need to be with CanPL.

Overseas in countries where teams can travel almost exclusively by bus rather than air to away games and where there tend to be more lucrative broadcast and sponsorship deals thanks to soccer being the main spectator sport, crowds as low as 2000 or so can be the minimum level of interest that is needed to keep the lights on where fully professional clubs are concerned. Unlike in Canada, it's usually easy for a club to turn semi-professional and find their appropriate level in the league system pyramid when crowds levels are not sufficient to sustain full-time professionalism. Every club finds its appropriate level over time. In Canada, clubs fold outright in the context of air-travel format leagues in the absence of a European style pyramid league system and when enough have done so the entire deck of cards caves in.

The problem with making a domestic pro league fly in Canada (pun intended) in a coast-to-coast format hemmed in by the 49th parallel, the Great Lakes etc has always been putting together a minimum of eight clubs drawing the crowds levels needed to be financially stable long term when soccer isn't the main spectator sport and media interest is lukewarm at best. CanPL has one club that's almost certainly there on that (i.e Halifax), three that sometimes are but to varying extents often/usually still don't draw the necessary crowd levels (Ottawa, Calgary and Hamilton), and four that are clearly well short of where things need to be to an extent that low seven figure financial losses can be expected each season as has been demonstrated by the Blue Bomber/Valour accounts that are released publicly.

I propose Ozwin's Law - similar to Godwin's law - Wikipedia but instead of Adolf it's a CHL style Bus League where you don't talk about CPL teams by their names (forge) and use the city instead (Hamilton). One day, in 20+ years, when CPL has 16 teams and CPL 2 kicks off I hope you bring the same energy and enthusiasm to your cause then. All your ideas would suddenly be very relevant. 

7 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

No the Lions are pretty popular in Vancouver right now. Instead of banging their head against the wall in Halifax, they should just focus on Victoria. To make it take more sense they should team up. Pacific and CFL

I think Victoria CFL is working in the opposite way in that the Touchdown Pacific game is to ensure all Victoria fans support the BC Lions, and there is never enough grass roots support for a separate Victoria CFL team to compete with the Lions. With Attendance of 30,000 in BC place they definitely loose money with 14,000 in Victoria. Even an expanded Starlight stadium with 20,000 seats for CFL Victoria team wouldn't compete, so they would have to be pretty desperate to expand like that. I think they are only desperate for an extra Eastern franchise. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

2 hours ago, Sonny Heung-min said:

I propose Ozwin's Law - similar to Godwin's law - Wikipedia but instead of Adolf it's a CHL style Bus League where you don't talk about CPL teams by their names (forge) and use the city instead (Hamilton). One day, in 20+ years, when CPL has 16 teams and CPL 2 kicks off I hope you bring the same energy and enthusiasm to your cause then. All your ideas would suddenly be very relevant....

Genuinely hope I won't be able to say I told you so, if this league eventually goes the way of the CSL in 1992 once the one-off cash windfall linked to the 2026 co-hosting is out of the way. The CSL scenario is that a limited number of clubs that have a reasonable shot at making it long term will decant over to USSF sanctioning in the USL Championship while the rest of the league will disappear leaving only the League One sort of level under the CSA umbrella.

Investors eventually do get tired of financial losses as the Fath Brothers did in Edmonton when there is no light at the end of what has already been a very long and costly tunnel. There isn't always an ends happily ever after MLS style turnaround with league startups. The sensible course in life is usually chasing what's actually readily achievable on a rational basis even if it's not what you would want in an ideal world rather than going all in chasing after what you want to happen on a visceral emotional level.

The aftermath of the latter approach not working usually isn't pretty and can take a long time to recover from.

Edited September 5 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Sonny Heung-min]

3 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Genuinely hope I won't be able to say I told you so, if this league eventually goes the way of the CSL in 1992 once the off cash windfall linked to the 2026 co-hosting is out of the way. The CSL scenario is that a limited number of clubs that have a reasonable shot at making it long term will decant over to USSF sanctioning in the USL Championship while the rest of the league will disappear leaving just the League One level under the CSA umbrella.

Investors eventually do get tired of financial losses as the Fath Brothers did in Edmonton when there is no light at the end of what has already been a very long and costly tunnel. There isn't always an ends happily ever after MLS style turnaround with league startups. The sensible course in life is usually chasing what's actually readily achievable on a rational basis rather than going all in with what you want to happen on an visceral emotional level. The aftermath of the latter approach not working usually isn't pretty and can take a long time to recover from.

It is prudent to be cautious but if the CPL fails I am sure you will miss watching the matches, if it does last you will regret not embracing and enjoying its growth from these early years. Like you say professional soccer across Canada is not a given and has failed in the past, so it is logical to not be so gloomy while it can currently be enjoyed. 

Please beware hubris, the world and Canada are very different now compared to 1992, post 2026 things will not revert back to 1992. I have greatly enjoyed seeing the development of both the CPL and League 1 Canada from 2018 to now and argue there is reasonable chance of it growing further. It is not perfect there are many issues with CSB, franchise fees, self interests etc... You can catastrophize about a post 2026 professional soccer all you want, if you're wrong about this particular issue, I am sure you will find a new reason to be predict the demise of pro soccer in Canada. 

You think Valour FC is going to go under soon or after 2026. Instead of repeating this claim as fact, why not be happy every year that Valour FC survives, celebrate that despite a sub optimum stadium situation, poor sporting direction and the lack of serious community buy in, thousands still turn up to games each season and thousands are being spent on maintaining the team. The Fath Brothers did fail in Edmonton, but would you have preferred them to have never tried and FC Edmonton to have never existed? 

Every Valour home game is a chance for a young kid to walk up the steps, see the pro soccer in the flesh with their own eyes and be inspired, just like you must have been at some point in your life to be this dedicated to a Canadian pro soccer forum. I just recommend that you adjust the tainted lenses that you observe Canadian pro soccer through, "If everywhere you go smells like shit, maybe it's time to check your own shoes."

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

14 minutes ago, Sonny Heung-min said:

It is prudent to be cautious but if the CPL fails I am sure you will miss watching the matches, if it does last you will regret not embracing and enjoying its growth from these early years....

What part of "Genuinely hope I won't be able to say I told you so" did you fail to grasp? I have paid for a Onesoccer subscription. How am I not embracing and enjoying the league? I find it incredible sometimes the way some people on here don't seem to grasp that pointing out that there is an alternative way to go that is less riskly and likely to be more sustainable and to result in a more readily achievable expansion process is motivated by actually wanting the league to still be around in 20 years time.

[Kent]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

There isn't always an ends happily ever after MLS style turnaround with league startups. The sensible course in life is usually chasing what's actually readily achievable on a rational basis even if it's not what you would want in an ideal world rather than going all in chasing after what you want to happen on a visceral emotional level.

Canada as a whole did the sensible thing and did what was readily achievable from 1993-2018. It resulted in 5 pro teams by the end of that window of time (plus 1 or more reserve teams). Some people were ready to dream bigger and be more ambitious. Now we have 11 pro teams (plus 1 or more reserve teams). Time will tell if this number grows or retracts. I'm along for the ride.