CPL General

[K Edgar]

9 hours ago, gigi riva said:

Whats up with all the draws in the early going 

58% of games have ended in a draw -- twice the normal rate (24% in 2022; 28% in 2021; 32% in 2020; 27% in 2019)

Also, only 1 game has been decided by more than 1 goal.

[MM3/MM2/MM]

8 hours ago, K Edgar said:

58% of games have ended in a draw -- twice the normal rate (24% in 2022; 28% in 2021; 32% in 2020; 27% in 2019)

Also, only 1 game has been decided by more than 1 goal.

Goal scoring is down compared to 2022 from 2.5 to 2.0 per game it is early in the season and offense usually takes longer to kick-in.

[shermanator]

Bus leagues, motherfucker

 

[Ansem]

CPL's influence within the CSA has grew and now bigger than the MLS clubs. Their interest will have to be considered going forward.

 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Ansem

[Kingston]

42 minutes ago, Ansem said:

CPL's influence within the CSA has grew and now bigger than the MLS clubs. Their interest will have to be considered going forward.

 

I don't think the CPL has had any problems having influence with the CSA.  I mean, the CSA literally stick handled the formation of the league and has taken significant steps to help it along since then.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Kingston

[Ansem]

25 minutes ago, Kingston said:

I don't think the CPL has had any problems having influence with the CSA.  I mean, the CSA literally stick handled the formation of the league and has taken significant steps to help it along since then.

The current Canadian championship would suggest otherwise - they clearly had the MLS teams' interest with their league cup campaign over everyone else - including the fans of clubs who couldn't hosts. Also, what about the past Canchamp where TFC were "gifted" the CCL berth?

This just means that candidates will have to earn those CPL votes too - not that we have a great pool of candidates to begin with

[Kingston]

24 minutes ago, Ansem said:

The current Canadian championship would suggest otherwise - they clearly had the MLS teams' interest with their league cup campaign over everyone else - including the fans of clubs who couldn't hosts. Also, what about the past Canchamp where TFC were "gifted" the CCL berth?

This just means that candidates will have to earn those CPL votes too - not that we have a great pool of candidates to begin with

I'm not suggesting that the CSA ignores the other clubs - nor should they.  This year's Canadian Championship schedule is simply foolish.  This year's schedule isn't so much the CSA accommodating the MLS teams as it is the CSA choosing a stupid option when there were very obvious, better options available that would have been useful for all the teams from L1 to MLS.

V-Cup schedule aside, the fact that CPL teams are guaranteed two of our three CCL spots is an example of the CSA looking out for the CPL.  The CSB deal (love it or hate it) is another.  As well as the previously mentioned starting the whole league in the first place.

[Aird25]

20 minutes ago, Kingston said:

the fact that CPL teams are guaranteed two of our three CCL spots is an example of the CSA looking out for the CPL.

How could it be any different, have 2 Voyageurs cups a year?

[Kingston]

7 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

How could it be any different, have 2 Voyageurs cups a year?

Just listing some of the many possible alternatives without debating their merits:

1.  Add a "bronze medal game" to the V-Cup and send the top three teams.

2.  Send the V-Cup winner, the CPL champ, and the best MLS team.

3.  Send the best L1, CPL, and MLS teams.

4.  Send the V-Cup winner and the two best MLS teams.

There are lots of possibilities.  Selecting which one is "best" depends on what the priorities are.

So an example of the CSA supporting the CPL is the CSA choosing an option that guarantees the CPL teams two thirds of our spots.

[Kingston]

I'm not up on how the CSA elections work.  The quote a few posts up mentions 15 votes for CPL teams and 6 for MLS teams.  Who else gets votes in this (as I assume it's not just our pro teams)?

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, Kingston said:

This year's schedule isn't so much the CSA accommodating the MLS teams as it is the CSA choosing a stupid option when there were very obvious, better options available that would have been useful for all the teams from L1 to MLS.

They totally were accommodating MLS for their League Cup. They could have done what the USSF did (with way more clubs and leagues) and add dates after the Cup later this summer instead of condensing everything in the spring.

Let's not kid ourselves here.

1 hour ago, Kingston said:

V-Cup schedule aside, the fact that CPL teams are guaranteed two of our three CCL spots is an example of the CSA looking out for the CPL. 

CCL berths going to the league is the norm - not a favor. Of all the domestic cups that I can think off, only the winner goes to continental tournaments, never the runner ups. As a matter of fact, if the domestic cup winner also qualifies via the league, it's the next best club in the league that goes to the tournament - not the runner up of the domestic cup

Edited May 3, 2023 by Ansem

[Aird25]

17 minutes ago, Kingston said:

Just listing some of the many possible alternatives without debating their merits:

1.  Add a "bronze medal game" to the V-Cup and send the top three teams.

2.  Send the V-Cup winner, the CPL champ, and the best MLS team.

3.  Send the best L1, CPL, and MLS teams.

4.  Send the V-Cup winner and the two best MLS teams.

There are lots of possibilities.  Selecting which one is "best" depends on what the priorities are.

So an example of the CSA supporting the CPL is the CSA choosing an option that guarantees the CPL teams two thirds of our spots.

No thanks. I think our approach is in line with how most countries do it and it makes far more sense to me than any of these suggestions. The champions of every European domestic league qualify for Champions League qualification rounds. Cardiff doesn't qualify by being a relegation contender in the Championship just because they're the second highest welsh team, and MLS teams shouldn't qualify by being middling to poor MLS teams. Can't they now qualify through the 4 MLS berths?

And why would the federation not support our premier league?

[Unnamed Trialist]

42 minutes ago, Ansem said:

They totally were accommodating MLS for their League Cup. They could have done what the USSF did (with way more clubs and leagues) and add dates after the Cup later this summer instead of condensing everything in the spring.

Let's not kid ourselves here.

CCL berths going to the league is the norm - not a favor. Of all the domestic cups that I can think off, only the winner goes to continental tournaments, never the runner ups. As a matter of fact, if the domestic cup winner also qualifies via the league, it's the next best club in the league that goes to the tournament - not the runner up of the domestic cup

I don't really care, but many leagues send the Cup runner up to European competitions in function of where the Cup winner goes. Many leagues do not look lower in the table to find the qualifier. 

I can supply data, just don't think you should be so adamant about a "norm" that in fact isn't.

[Aird25]

Early MVP candidates?

I think Manny Aparicio is still the straw that stirs Pacific's drink. He just needs to find a way to play more minutes. We're a different team when he's on the pitch

[Kingston]

50 minutes ago, Ansem said:

They could have done what the USSF did (with way more clubs and leagues) and add dates after the Cup later this summer instead of condensing everything in the spring.

This is what they should have done.

My emphasis on the CSA making a poor choice rather than on accommodating the MLS teams was in reaction to the insinuation (made by other posters in earlier discussions if not meant here by you) that the CSA was somehow wrong to factor in the Leagues Cup.

Did the CSA schedule around the Leagues Cup?  Yes.  (Or, at least, I assume so.)  Should they have?  Yes.  The CSA is responsible for teams in three different leagues - L1, CPL, and MLS.  Should they also have been smart enough to do it such a way that it didn't hurt the L1 teams?  Also yes and it would not have been difficult!  In fact, entirely aside from the Leagues Cup, why are we asking soccer fans to come out to V-Cup matches in cold, wet April instead of late summer?  But that's on the CSA for lack of vision, not some unreasonable acknowledgement of the Leagues Cup.

[Kingston]

59 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

No thanks. I think our approach is in line with how most countries do it and it makes far more sense to me than any of these suggestions. The champions of every European domestic league qualify for Champions League qualification rounds. Cardiff doesn't qualify by being a relegation contender in the Championship just because they're the second highest welsh team, and MLS teams shouldn't qualify by being middling to poor MLS teams. Can't they now qualify through the 4 MLS berths?

And why would the federation not support our premier league?

Like I wrote, I was showing that alternatives exist, not advocating for one in particular.

As for what other countries do, sure, but I think we can also acknowledge that Canada's situation isn't typical of what most other countries have.

As for why the federation wouldn't support the CPL?  They certainly can and have.  In fact, they've made it their most important goal by giving the CPL two guaranteed spots and a chance at the third.  Other possible goals would be maximizing the chances of a Canadian team winning the CCL, giving maximum high level minutes to current national team members, or pumping up L1.  There is no objective "best" here, just choices.

[Ansem]

I'd like to challenge some of your points if I may

 

1 hour ago, Kingston said:

Other possible goals would be maximizing the chances of a Canadian team winning the CCL

They used to have only 1 possible path to CCL. Now they could theoretically all qualifies to CCL via 3 paths : League Cup, MLS & Voyageurs Cup.

Wouldn't you agree that if they can't qualifies via the League Cup or MLS than the likelihood that they win CCL against better MLS opposition and Liga MX are almost slim to none?

Why should we artificially facilitate their path to CCL in that case?

 

1 hour ago, Kingston said:

giving maximum high level minutes to current national team members

They are already getting those minutes in MLS and League Cup. The smartest thing to do is to expose more Canadian players to that level not just ensuring that it's the same select few that plays those valuable minutes so they can prove that they (CPL players) move at a higher level.

This is completely an assumption on my part and feel free to tell me I'm wrong.

I just feel sometimes (I may be wrong) that some MLS fans really want to keep the MLS system with their own set of privileges segregated from the rest of the "Canadian soccer universe". Unless everyone else proves that they are MLS level by being signed by an MLS club, they should stay segregated in whatever lower league they are and acknowledge/accept their place in the pecking order.

Again, I'm not necessarily accurate - just a feeling and impressing. I'm expressing annoyance at that way of thinking and really don't understand why we'd want to operate like this. "MLS level" is very subjective and we can all point out players that are at that level but aren't signed in MLS - Manjrekar James? Choiniere? etc...  I legit don't get it

 

1 hour ago, Kingston said:

or pumping up L1.

If USL and Liga Ascencio aren't going - we can all agree that L1s teams have no business there.

 

[Watchmen]

2 hours ago, Kingston said:

Should they also have been smart enough to do it such a way that it didn't hurt the L1 teams?

I mean, it didn't hurt 1 L1 team...

[Kingston]

45 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I'd like to challenge some of your points if I may

Of course you may; that's the purpose of this board. 

46 minutes ago, Ansem said:

They used to have only 1 possible path to CCL. Now they could theoretically all qualifies to CCL via 3 paths : League Cup, MLS & Voyageurs Cup.

Wouldn't you agree that if they can't qualifies via the League Cup or MLS than the likelihood that they win CCL against better MLS opposition and Liga MX are almost slim to none?

Why should we artificially facilitate their path to CCL in that case?

An MLS team that is doing middling to poor in MLS play is unlikely to win the CCL.

A CPL team that can't win the V-Cup against those same MLS teams is even less likely to win the CCL.

Our best (and, this year, low) chance of winning the CCL is to send our best teams.  So, if the goal is to win the CCL, we wouldn't reserve two of the three spots for CPL teams - we'd use a format that sends our best teams, whichever those are.  But the CSA has not emphasized that goal.

52 minutes ago, Ansem said:

They are already getting those minutes in MLS and League Cup. The smartest thing to do is to expose more Canadian players to that level not just ensuring that it's the same select few that plays those valuable minutes so they can prove that they (CPL players) move at a higher level.

This is also certainly an option and one that the CSA appears to favour. (If we assume they considered things this way and didn't just want to boost the profile of the CPL overall by giving spots to CPL teams.)

54 minutes ago, Ansem said:

This is completely an assumption on my part and feel free to tell me I'm wrong.

I just feel sometimes (I may be wrong) that some MLS fans really want to keep the MLS system with their own set of privileges segregated from the rest of the "Canadian soccer universe". Unless everyone else proves that they are MLS level by being signed by an MLS club, they should stay segregated in whatever lower league they are and acknowledge/accept their place in the pecking order.

Again, I'm not necessarily accurate - just a feeling and impressing. I'm expressing annoyance at that way of thinking and really don't understand why we'd want to operate like this. "MLS level" is very subjective and we can all point out players that are at that level but aren't signed in MLS - Manjrekar James? Choiniere? etc...  I legit don't get it

I'm unapologetically a fan of the Canadian MLS teams.  TFC since they came out but also the Whitecaps and even, if no one else is left, Montreal.  Moreso, however, I'm a Canadian soccer fan.  I was one of the 2000 people who regularly went to CSL Blizzard games and A-League Lynx games back in the day.  Then TFC games and, eventually and after we moved to eastern Ontario, L1O games in Kingston and Fury games and now Atletico in Ottawa.  I was disappointed there was no Halifax game when I was there on vacation last summer.  And, of course, the national team since forever.

My point is that I'll support any Canadian team in any competition, and want to see all the Canadian teams and leagues succeed, even though TFC is my favourite.  But they are my favourite.  As such, much like the feelings and impressions you described quite well above, I express annoyance at the feeling and impression of "now that the CPL is here, all that matters is what is best for the CPL".

The way I see it is our MLS teams are our most valuable, most successful club teams that have done the most for the development of Canadian soccer.  They continue to represent the highest level of play in the country, regardless of whether the CPL is listed as D1, and they provide good playing spots for many members of our NT.

I'm delighted that the CPL is here and, in some markets, starting to thrive.  I'm by no means thinking it needs to be "kept in its place".  I'd be overjoyed if it got to the point where our CPL teams were legitimately on the same level as our MLS teams.  But, in the meantime, I don't think we need to pretend the CPL is something it isn't.  It is functionally our D2 league if we look at the entirety of Canadian soccer.  And that's okay - it's five years old and a lot of fun to watch.  And also a great proving ground for new talent.  But, for example, giving the CPL two of our three CCL slots just seems like a waste to me for reasons I've already discussed elsewhere.

So I can appreciate where you feel an anti-CPL slant in some quarters.  And in some quarters I feel an anti-Canadian MLS slant.

[Ansem]

2 hours ago, Kingston said:

An MLS team that is doing middling to poor in MLS play is unlikely to win the CCL.

A CPL team that can't win the V-Cup against those same MLS teams is even less likely to win the CCL.

But they are both unlikely to win CCL but more Canadians will get this experience though. Is that worst than sending 2 to 3 MLS clubs that barely plays any Canadians that will still end up not winning it?

CPL might have not won the V Cup yet but they have either won games or came mighty close to eliminate MLS clubs with strong squads while having Canadian heavy rosters.

 

2 hours ago, Kingston said:

Our best (and, this year, low) chance of winning the CCL is to send our best teams.  So, if the goal is to win the CCL, we wouldn't reserve two of the three spots for CPL teams - we'd use a format that sends our best teams, whichever those are.  But the CSA has not emphasized that goal.

When you talk about "goal", who's goal is it really? I think it's the leagues goal more so than the association's goal. MLS have a format to send it's best clubs to CCL, same for CPL who opted for regular season champion & CPL Cup winner.

The association have no say on how things go in MLS and it took CONCACAF to step in to allow them to qualify via the league and League Cup. CPL is Canada's top league and it's just natural that it support its own league which gives lots of playing time to Canadians to expand its pool. The domestic Cup is good enough for MLS clubs as far as the CSA goes otherwise, you'll end up making a joke of it - not a great way to appeal to fans and help it gain more value

My last point is that MLS wouldn't be the league it is if it didn't face adversity in CCL which fueled that desire to close the gap and win the whole thing. They adjusted, made new rules even some being a bit gimmicky - but it worked! After years of getting crushed by Liga MX, an MLS club went to the FIFA Club World Club. Why would you wish to deny CPL the same challenges that help MLS adjust and improve? CPL needs those games and get punched in the face in CONCACAF so they can make those adjustments and improve as well. How can they learn what needs to change if they aren't tested in Mexico and Central America?

If we have the ability to satisfy both leagues, why not?

 

2 hours ago, Kingston said:

My point is that I'll support any Canadian team in any competition, and want to see all the Canadian teams and leagues succeed, even though TFC is my favourite.  But they are my favourite.  As such, much like the feelings and impressions you described quite well above, I express annoyance at the feeling and impression of "now that the CPL is here, all that matters is what is best for the CPL".

I think you can do both - be an unconditional fan of MLS while recognizing that CPL having those CCL berths allowing more Canadians to have this experience and grow from it is the right call. (Choiniere scoring at Azteca anyone?)

Ultimately, we expect the CSA to make decisions about what's best for Canadian soccer. Yes the 3 MLS clubs are part of it but those decisions should never be done to help satisfy the ambitions of a few at the expanse of the many under their responsibility.

 

2 hours ago, Kingston said:

This is also certainly an option and one that the CSA appears to favour. (If we assume they considered things this way and didn't just want to boost the profile of the CPL overall by giving spots to CPL teams.)

Do you blame them for wanting to elevate a league, an asset of their own sanctioned by them, that represents them? Isn't that part of their job description?

 

2 hours ago, Kingston said:

The way I see it is our MLS teams are our most valuable, most successful club teams that have done the most for the development of Canadian soccer.  They continue to represent the highest level of play in the country, regardless of whether the CPL is listed as D1, and they provide good playing spots for many members of our NT.

Sound management should be --> How can I help multiply the number of big clubs on my territory under an asset that I sanction that ultimately represents us?

It shouldn't be --> How can I ensure that those 3 clubs gets all the privilege at the expanse of everyone else?

The needs of the many should be ahead the needs/wants of the select few. They have to elevate everyone as best they can, not a select few while indirectly "stagnating" the rest of the pyramid. That's the CSA mandate, that's the expectation, that's their responsibility.

2 hours ago, Kingston said:

I'm delighted that the CPL is here and, in some markets, starting to thrive.  I'm by no means thinking it needs to be "kept in its place".  I'd be overjoyed if it got to the point where our CPL teams were legitimately on the same level as our MLS teams.  But, in the meantime, I don't think we need to pretend the CPL is something it isn't.  It is functionally our D2 league if we look at the entirety of Canadian soccer.  And that's okay - it's five years old and a lot of fun to watch.  And also a great proving ground for new talent.  But, for example, giving the CPL two of our three CCL slots just seems like a waste to me for reasons I've already discussed elsewhere.

That's another way of saying "they need to know their place and be kept there" and let's get fully behind a foreign league that could care less about Canadian soccer --> No expansions past 3 cities, minor roster rules changes under extreme threats and reacting badly about the CSA putting its own interest ahead of theirs

• “I am excited about the development of the CPL,” Garber said. “But we do need to work together to figure [things] out. The Canadian Soccer Association needs to figure out how they’re going to engage with Major League Soccer teams that are investing millions and millions and millions of dollars per team, not including what they’ve invested in their academies and in their infrastructure, to ensure that that investment is going to help develop the Canadian player, and help justify the investment that they are making, otherwise that investment is going to go away, because right now, it’s not making that much sense.”

-Don Garber --> Context of USL no longer being in Canada and CPL refusing MLS reserves clubs in their league

https://aftn.ca/garber-tells-csa-they-need-to-figure-out-how-to-engage-with-mls-teams-for-the-good-of-canadian-player-development/

While I understand your sentiment, I hope you can also understand the other side of the coin as the league can come across as viewing this country as no more than the 3 clubs' backyard. Some believe we can be so much more than that by being provided with same support and opportunities that MLS enjoyed over the years.

The CSA didn't take under consideration the playing form of L1s clubs and CPL when it started the V Cup that early and condensed all the games. That's terrible for clubs who couldn't host, bad for attendance when you have so many games within a week in the same location (YLS), it's bad for injuries, it's bad for the quality and much more. We don't have to agree on the matter of whether or not considering the League Cup was at the heart of the matter. They have to do better going forward and also think about CPL and L1s clubs interests.

The vote allocation might force whoever is elected to listen to CPL's concerns much closely and actually have to pitch to them to win over their support - that's a good thing

Edited May 3, 2023 by Ansem

[Kent]

11 hours ago, Kingston said:

I don't think the CPL has had any problems having influence with the CSA.  I mean, the CSA literally stick handled the formation of the league and has taken significant steps to help it along since then.

@Ansemthis is the original statement that started this whole thing. It doesn't anywhere say that the CSA should NOT be looking out for the CPL. Just stating that the CSA looking out for the CPL isn't a new thing. You then went on at length to point out the merits of what the CSA has been doing to look out for the CPL. I don't think there is a disagreement here unless I am missing something.

Full disclosure, I didn't finish your entire last post.

[Aird25]

I feel like this discussion is a bit moot because I can’t imagine we’d continue to be awarded this many spots if we stopped providing an avenue through our league

[narduch]

5 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

I feel like this discussion is a bit moot because I can’t imagine we’d continue to be awarded this many spots if we stopped providing an avenue through our league

I think it was also a way to make us whole after essentially kicking us out of Concacaf League. 

The new format left Canada orphaned from the rest of the confederation 

[Big_M]

Just now, Big_M said:

 

 

[Big_M]

Hopefully doesnt end up like Pepple who got sent back early from his d4 loan and then stuck in a tough situation

Vancouver FC announce signing of youngest player in CPL history Taryck Tahid