CPL new teams speculation

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Yes, and the would be investors have exited the scene.

[masster]

Kelowna sits at the top of the Canadian Premier League expansion list

https://www.castanet.net/news/Kelowna/496527/Kelowna-sits-at-the-top-of-the-Canadian-Premier-League-expansion-list

[Footscray]

Sounds promising on the expansion but less so on the facility, with strong hints of using the Apple Bowl while a permanent structure plan is worked out that sounds vague.

The Apple Bowl is a very poor facility for professional sports, as much as I want to see a team here.  The track (and even beyond that the one stand is a long ways away from the track even, the tiny field, the lack of secondary stands and the limited capacity and changing rooms plus the lack of parking.  I think at a minimum it would need a new temporary modular second stand to be tenable for a season or two.

Really hoping that a concrete plan for an actual stadium that isn't modular will emerge and we're not indefinitely at the Apple Bowl.  From an infrastructure perspective Kelowna needs some kind of outdoor facility for events even if the CPL isn't in the picture and there is a lot of money budgeted for a new Y (and potentially a high school being discussed) for on the same grounds as the Apple Bowl and so a facility like the new 8,000k stadium in York with community facilities attached would make sense on many levels.

[SpursFlu]

2 hours ago, Footscray said:

Sounds promising on the expansion but less so on the facility, with strong hints of using the Apple Bowl while a permanent structure plan is worked out that sounds vague.

The Apple Bowl is a very poor facility for professional sports, as much as I want to see a team here.  The track (and even beyond that the one stand is a long ways away from the track even, the tiny field, the lack of secondary stands and the limited capacity and changing rooms plus the lack of parking.  I think at a minimum it would need a new temporary modular second stand to be tenable for a season or two.

Really hoping that a concrete plan for an actual stadium that isn't modular will emerge and we're not indefinitely at the Apple Bowl.  From an infrastructure perspective Kelowna needs some kind of outdoor facility for events even if the CPL isn't in the picture and there is a lot of money budgeted for a new Y (and potentially a high school being discussed) for on the same grounds as the Apple Bowl and so a facility like the new 8,000k stadium in York with community facilities attached would make sense on 

I think that's exactly what he said. A temporary stay at the Apple Bowl as they build a permanent facility. I thought it was interesting he said a facility to accommodate a baseball field and soccer stadium. The area around Elks stadium could actually accommodate both facilities as I believe there is a second baseball field and a curling rink on the grounds

[Watchmen]

23 hours ago, Footscray said:

Sounds promising on the expansion but less so on the facility, with strong hints of using the Apple Bowl while a permanent structure plan is worked out that sounds vague.

The Apple Bowl is a very poor facility for professional sports, as much as I want to see a team here.  The track (and even beyond that the one stand is a long ways away from the track even, the tiny field, the lack of secondary stands and the limited capacity and changing rooms plus the lack of parking.  I think at a minimum it would need a new temporary modular second stand to be tenable for a season or two.

Really hoping that a concrete plan for an actual stadium that isn't modular will emerge and we're not indefinitely at the Apple Bowl.  From an infrastructure perspective Kelowna needs some kind of outdoor facility for events even if the CPL isn't in the picture and there is a lot of money budgeted for a new Y (and potentially a high school being discussed) for on the same grounds as the Apple Bowl and so a facility like the new 8,000k stadium in York with community facilities attached would make sense on many levels.

There's no mention of an ownership group either, only that the CPL views it as a top location.

[masster]

SixFive Sports and Entertainment?

[Watchmen]

1 minute ago, masster said:

SixFive Sports and Entertainment?

Things change, but I always remember Friend's initial comments being that he thought Kelowna would work and they just needed to find an owner. It never sounded like he was directly interested in being the one to do it and I can't see them taking on a 3rd team. If they find a buyer for Pacific, then maybe.

[masster]

As @Big_M said in another thread...maybe they consider relocation and not expansion? Move York?

[BearcatSA]

4 hours ago, Watchmen said:

Things change, but I always remember Friend's initial comments being that he thought Kelowna would work and they just needed to find an owner. It never sounded like he was directly interested in being the one to do it and I can't see them taking on a 3rd team. If they find a buyer for Pacific, then maybe.

I can't see this ownership group with three teams.  However, I do agree with Mayor Dyas that 2026 would be a good launch date, World Cup year.  It also gives the league an underpromise and overdeliver situation if an ownership group is ready and they somehow are able to get their ducks in a row for even a 2025 start up.  Frankly, I think '26 would be it.

Edited July 17 by BearcatSA

[Aird25]

On 7/11/2024 at 12:32 PM, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Yes, and the would be investors have exited the scene.

Have they exited? I thought they were in a legal dispute with eachother 

[Footscray]

On 7/15/2024 at 3:20 PM, SpursFlu said:

I think that's exactly what he said. A temporary stay at the Apple Bowl as they build a permanent facility. I thought it was interesting he said a facility to accommodate a baseball field and soccer stadium. The area around Elks stadium could actually accommodate both facilities as I believe there is a second baseball field and a curling rink on the grounds

Mayor has said in other interviews that the original proposal by a previous potential ownership group involving elks/kings stadium and leveling the curling club is dead.

I think that was more of a real estate play... and relocating the curling club would cost millions.

I think it'll be at Parkinson by the apple bowl where they are building the new Y and high school, or downtown in city park at waterfront field which was the rumor circulating in town a couple weeks ago when the game was here.

I am guessing it would take a couple million to make the apple bowl fit for even a temporary year.  The sound system didn't even work at the exhibition game.  Sea cans would be needed for dressing rooms and the bleachers on the far side have no stairs so once they are full you can't exit... I am sure they will need to be replaced from a safety perspective.

I'm ok with that if we actually get a good permanent stadium though.  An 8k seater in waterfront park with a roof I think would do very very well.  Mayor referencing prospera palace is interesting as that was a P3 where builder got to operate it for a long time in exchange for building it.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

11 hours ago, masster said:

As @Big_M said in another thread...maybe they consider relocation and not expansion? Move York?

The new ownership means that York is probably OK for another few seasons now. Think it's Pacific that are prime candidates for a relocation because of the stadium expansion issue but they are not going to state that publicly while they still have half a season's worth of single game tickets to sell. They also need to worry about how gung ho Wade Miller still is about the Valour...

Edited July 17 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[BearcatSA]

As I alluded to in an earlier post, they need to get all their ducks in a row and the temporary venue is near the front of that row (after a clear ownership group).  However, the longer timeline projection of starting in '26 definitely helps.

Is the league planning on playing another match in Kelowna next season or is CPL on Tour going elsewhere? 

[SpursFlu]

8 hours ago, Footscray said:

Mayor has said in other interviews that the original proposal by a previous potential ownership group involving elks/kings stadium and leveling the curling club is dead.

I think that was more of a real estate play... and relocating the curling club would cost millions.

I think it'll be at Parkinson by the apple bowl where they are building the new Y and high school, or downtown in city park at waterfront field which was the rumor circulating in town a couple weeks ago when the game was here.

I am guessing it would take a couple million to make the apple bowl fit for even a temporary year.  The sound system didn't even work at the exhibition game.  Sea cans would be needed for dressing rooms and the bleachers on the far side have no stairs so once they are full you can't exit... I am sure they will need to be replaced from a safety perspective.

I'm ok with that if we actually get a good permanent stadium though.  An 8k seater in waterfront park with a roof I think would do very very well.  Mayor referencing prospera palace is interesting as that was a P3 where builder got to operate it for a long time in exchange for building it.

I wonder if they could use it as an excuse to improve it for a permanent upgrade to the Apple Bowl for community use. McLoed park in Langley or what they've done at Bear Creek Park in Surrey comes to mind. I went by Bear Creek the other day and it looks really nice

[Kingston]

On 7/15/2024 at 2:46 PM, masster said:

Kelowna sits at the top of the Canadian Premier League expansion list

https://www.castanet.net/news/Kelowna/496527/Kelowna-sits-at-the-top-of-the-Canadian-Premier-League-expansion-list

By "top of the list" I assume they mean in terms of an interested ownership group with a plausible stadium idea.  As cities go, it can't possibly be top of the list ahead of something like Quebec City.

[BearcatSA]

1 hour ago, Kingston said:

By "top of the list" I assume they mean in terms of an interested ownership group with a plausible stadium idea.  As cities go, it can't possibly be top of the list ahead of something like Quebec City.

Possibly.  Or it could mean that they have an interested mayor and/or council and think they have considerable ceiling based on the Father's Day game.

[narduch]

 

 

[BigBadBorto]

Kelowna seems like a good option with their strong turnout for that game, either as an expansion or a relocation of   Vancouver FC, if they don't start selling more tickets..  

As for the Atlantic Canada prospects of Moncton or St. John's.  I used to think Moncton made more sense because of reduced travel costs (being close to Halifax, teams would only make one flight and play both teams) and regional rivalry.  But they had a very low turnout for the Wanderers U21 summer series (it looked like maybe 1,000 showed up?).  Whereas St. John's packed St George's with over 5k..  They seem to be more hungry for pro soccer.    Whether there is a potential owner is another question..

[Mihairokov]

• Who would own Moncton?
• Who would own St. John's? Particularly to no doubt take the brunt of increased travel costs that the league would subjected to.
  
  I think people really underestimate just how far St. John's is from the rest of the world. 

It seems unwise to expand the league even further geographically with smaller markets when there are larger markets in between the current ones still without teams.

Edited August 1 by Mihairokov

[BigBadBorto]

9 minutes ago, Mihairokov said:

• Who would own Moncton?
• Who would own St. John's? Particularly to no doubt take the brunt of increased travel costs that the league would subjected to.
  
  I think people really underestimate just how far St. John's is from the rest of the world. 

It seems unwise to expand the league even further geographically with smaller markets when there are larger markets in between the current ones still without teams.

No idea who would own them.  There certainly are some wealthy business people in both provinces (Irving family being the most famous in NB and they own the Moncton Wildcats Junior hockey team)..   Travel cost is an issue for St. Johns for sure and has been part of the reason other semi pro and junior hockey teams didn't work out..  However, you could have said the same about Halifax travel costs in CPL and they are the most successful team in terms of attendance.  Its a flight to St. John's just like it's a flight to Halifax - slightly more expensive for sure but I don't think a deal breaker, especially if you can get 5k attendance like they did for a U21 game

[Mihairokov]

10 minutes ago, BigBadBorto said:

No idea who would own them.  There certainly are some wealthy business people in both provinces (Irving family being the most famous in NB and they own the Moncton Wildcats Junior hockey team)

Owned specifically by Robert Irving, who is the only one who has ever shown interest in owning sports teams. Wealthy people typically don't own things that don't appreciate a ton in value. The joke has always been that Scott McCain purchased the Sea Dogs' rights simply to annoy the Irvings. 😛

 

10 minutes ago, BigBadBorto said:

Travel cost is an issue for St. Johns for sure and has been part of the reason other semi pro and junior hockey teams didn't work out..  However, you could have said the same about Halifax travel costs in CPL and they are the most successful team in terms of attendance.

Attendance is only one indicator of a team's viability. I know it's the easiest thing to fixate on but it's really over-valued in online circles.

 

10 minutes ago, BigBadBorto said:

Its a flight to St. John's just like it's a flight to Halifax - slightly more expensive for sure but I don't think a deal breaker,

Halifax -> St. John's 890km
Ottawa -> Halifax 950km
Ottawa -> St. John's 1,761km

I know CPL likes to brag that Halifax-Victoria is a very long away trip (~4,500km); St. John's-Victoria is over 5,000km. The equivalent is an EPL team from London going to Kazakhstan, or a team from Adelaide travelling to Singapore. For domestic matches.
 

10 minutes ago, BigBadBorto said:

especially if you can get 5k attendance like they did for a U21 game

A huge if at this point. I'd like to see St. John's do more to support teams at a local level but understand this is difficult because sports leagues in NL have to be provincial only as travel to the Maritimes is usually out of the question.

At the end of the day, I think St. John's would do well as a market for a team, but between the issues above and the glaring holes on the map throughout the rest of the country (including multiple cities of over a million without teams) I think it's really difficult to justify it at this stage.

Edited August 2 by Mihairokov

[SpursFlu]

I think the best thing that can happen for the CPL for various rwasons is to get to 12 teams ASAP and go to an east west alignment 

[BigBadBorto]

5 minutes ago, Mihairokov said:

Owned specifically by Robert Irving, who is the only one who has ever shown interest in owning sports teams. Wealthy people typically don't own things that don't appreciate a ton in value. The joke has always been that Scott McCain purchased the Sea Dogs' rights simply to annoy the Irvings. 😛

 

Attendance is only one indicator of a team's viability. I know it's the easiest thing to fixate on but it's really over-valued in online circles.

 

Halifax -> St. John's 890km
Ottawa -> Halifax 950km
Ottawa -> St. John's 1,761km

I know CPL likes to brag that Halifax-Victoria is a very long away trip (~4,500km); St. John's-Victoria is over 5,000km. The equivalent is an EPL team from London going to Kazakhstan, or a team from Adelaide travelling to Singapore. For domestic matches.
 

A huge if at this point. I'd like to see St. John's do more to support teams at a local level but understand this is difficult because sports leagues in NL have to be provincial only as travel to the Maritimes is usually out of the question.

At the end of the day, I think St. John's would do well as a market for a team, but between the issues above and the glaring holes on the map throughout the rest of the country (including multiple cities of over a million without teams) I think it's really difficult to justify it at this stage.

I would put both cities down the list behind Quebec City, London, Kitchener, Windsor, Saskatoon and even Kelowna.   I was just disappointed Moncton had such a low turnout for the U21 game against international opponents.  I saw it as a litmus test of local interest in pro soccer and in that regards, St John's pulled ahead of Moncton.  

[K Edgar]

Quebec has a population of ~8.5 million or 23% of Canada.  Not having a team in the province is the problem that needs fixed.  I am seeing for the 1st time CanPL programming in French this year, I assume this is being done for a reason -- I expect a Quebec City or Montreal area team to be announced for 2025 or 2026 by the end of this season.

The CanPL can say Kelowna is their number 1 target but a team in the 2nd most populous province has to be their priority.  Kelowna, Moncton, St John's, Saskatoon, Regina, Windsor, London, K-W all would be nice to have, but to hit largest untapped population in terms of audience and for national marketing opportunities has to be the main target.

(and in terms of population a return to Edmonton has to be up there)

[Kingston]

1 hour ago, SpursFlu said:

I think the best thing that can happen for the CPL for various rwasons is to get to 12 teams ASAP and go to an east west alignment 

Because then they could use busses for travel?