CPL new teams speculation

[Ansem]

5 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I think his first comment is fine, about talking with groups and not expanding until conditions are met. Think it's fine to also let fans know no expansion for next year. But beyond that, it seems too early right now, especially when we've seen how hard it can be for the conditions to be met.

A business with goals and objectives daring to share them? Blasphemy 🙄

[Soccerpro2]

3 hours ago, red card said:

 

 

They've been "aiming" for a Quebec team for 5 years now. They've aimed for a lot of things in 5 years. At least they aren't trying to generate hype with anymore ridiculous "expansion team" announcement that are a whole pile of nothing like they did in SK.

I "aim" to get a hot girl friend and a raise at work this year. I've been aiming for those for a while. 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Soccerpro2

[K Edgar]

Northern Tribune article.  Rehash of the same old rumours.

https://northerntribune.ca/canadian-premier-league-expansion-quebec-2023/

[narduch]

 

 

[Aird25]

41 minutes ago, K Edgar said:

Northern Tribune article.  Rehash of the same old rumours.

https://northerntribune.ca/canadian-premier-league-expansion-quebec-2023/

It would be great to have two teams come into Quebec at the same time. 

[narduch]

5 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

It would be great to have two teams come into Quebec at the same time. 

I bet they would get a TV deal immediately.

Probably with TVA

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

1 hour ago, K Edgar said:

Northern Tribune article.  Rehash of the same old rumours.

https://northerntribune.ca/canadian-premier-league-expansion-quebec-2023/

People who are still conflating the number of NDAs that have been signed at some point with the number of groups that are actively interested are difficult to take seriously. 16 groups actively want to get into an 8 team league and buy a share of CSB despite all the recent controversy = over egging the pudding in a big way.

Northern Tribune used to provide critical insight and reveal information that the league would probably have preferred to keep under wraps but now it just churns out click bait and an over-exhuberent version of the league's preferred marketing spin. Guess Thomas Nef no longer being involved is the probable explanation.

The market that actually had a stadium plan that was being actively pursued and a named interested investor was Saskatoon and that fell through this past season. Northern Tribune no longer appears to be peddling the notion that Joe Belan is going to reenter the fray so I guess we have finally reached acceptance on the five stages of grief where that was concerned.

Also worth noting that David Clanachan and Windsor doesn't even rate a mention in this article despite being awarded exclusive CanPL rights at the beginning of last year. 

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

I bet they would get a TV deal immediately.

Probably with TVA

I would not think that, unless you're saying they'd be buying OneSoccer content. I don't think they could get a TV deal independent of that, and I don't think OneSoccer would start selling games for franchises our piecemeal.

[Aird25]

37 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I would not think that, unless you're saying they'd be buying OneSoccer content. I don't think they could get a TV deal independent of that, and I don't think OneSoccer would start selling games for franchises our piecemeal.

I imagine OneSoccer would be pretty flexible in regards to selling rights. That's been Media Pro's business model elsewhere in the world. I was under the impression they were disappointed Canadian networks wouldn't play ball so they had to develop the OneSoccer streaming service.

[Watchmen]

42 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

I imagine OneSoccer would be pretty flexible in regards to selling rights. That's been Media Pro's business model elsewhere in the world. I was under the impression they were disappointed Canadian networks wouldn't play ball so they had to develop the OneSoccer streaming service.

That was definitely the initial issue.

I think I'm more trying to say I don't know if TVA would want to buy the rights to the CPL or just to the Quebec based teams. If they just want the Quebec team(s), i don't think OneSoccer can do it - you'd infuriate all the other teams who would to sell games in their local markets. If TVA wants the rights to the entire league (ie a game of the week scenario), then by all means sell to them.

[Kingston]

3 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I think I'm more trying to say I don't know if TVA would want to buy the rights to the CPL or just to the Quebec based teams. If they just want the Quebec team(s), i don't think OneSoccer can do it - you'd infuriate all the other teams who would to sell games in their local markets. If TVA wants the rights to the entire league (ie a game of the week scenario), then by all means sell to them.

Agreed.  One of the reasons to sign a league-wide media deal is to ensure that all teams benefit from media money - not just the most "popular" ones.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

The rights were signed over to Mediapro for ten years, so not sure why that would be an issue at this point. CSB already got their payment up front, and that helped with the league launch from what I understand. Beyond that it is also means that it is Mediapro's decision to make rather than CanPL's at this point. Have there not been local radio broadcasts in Hamilton, Ottawa and the GTA, and am I wrong in thinking that Pacific had at least one game shown on television locally back in 2019? Think if/when the money is viewed as being acceptable Mediapro are amenable to local deals.

[Ansem]

He's right, TVA could absolutely opt to buy only the Quebec City games + playoffs. After losing MLS, they could use the content. Peladeau has strong ties to Quebec City, not sure he'd join Bell and Rogers (whom he despise) in their stupid boycott

[red card]

Former CPL employee did his master thesis on The Growth of Pro Soccer in Canada: Finding the Right Formula to Grow the Beautiful Game

In short, he wanted to find what cities would be good to home pro soccer clubs. 

When looking at WCs, he found hosting the WC was more of the lighter to get the fire started, other factors made the fire grow. What gets the fire going is traditional soccer foundations, national team success, community support, standards, a vision, and consistent brands, as we saw in USA, KOR, JPN & RSA.

He assumed CPL is using a franchise model where the club eats the YoY cost but the club value grows a shit ton YoY. 

 

Some of the factors in the model used:

Cities that were; 

- decently sized population size (not huge, but above avg)
- generally some level of soccer fandom
- some sporting competition (# of pro teams)
- Corporate base
- GDP per capita

 

[Soccerpro2]

11 hours ago, narduch said:

 

 

Baaaad idea. Smaller European clubs trying to own clubs in the NASL/USL has been a disaster. They just don’t have the capital and things can get bad quick.

[P-O]

26 minutes ago, Soccerpro2 said:

Baaaad idea. Smaller European clubs trying to own clubs in the NASL/USL has been a disaster. They just don’t have the capital and things can get bad quick.

I believe it is great we have smaller european clubs coming over.

They see the potential Canada has to offer, our kids will have a warm place to train over the winter & it will beneficial for our coaches.

We need to fill our Premier League so we can move to the 2nd division and then add pro/rel.

We are a small nation football wise. Our kids need to play, be sold & that is how we will finance our stadiums, our academies & the training clubs will receive a fee eventually. A fee A La Kone was huge for D3 St-Laurent. 50K is a lot of money for them.

I really hope we have 12 clubs for the 2026 season. And then up 16 for the 2027 season after the World Cup.

I also wish the Prairies starts their D3, the Atlantic & Quebec starts their D4.

Ontario is years ahead & paving the way. They are doing it great. The rest of the nation has got to follow, on a smaller scale.

Edited November 9, 2023 by P-O

[Kent]

3 hours ago, red card said:

Former CPL employee did his master thesis on The Growth of Pro Soccer in Canada: Finding the Right Formula to Grow the Beautiful Game

In short, he wanted to find what cities would be good to home pro soccer clubs. 

When looking at WCs, he found hosting the WC was more of the lighter to get the fire started, other factors made the fire grow. What gets the fire going is traditional soccer foundations, national team success, community support, standards, a vision, and consistent brands, as we saw in USA, KOR, JPN & RSA.

He assumed CPL is using a franchise model where the club eats the YoY cost but the club value grows a shit ton YoY. 

 

Some of the factors in the model used:

Cities that were; 

- decently sized population size (not huge, but above avg)
- generally some level of soccer fandom
- some sporting competition (# of pro teams)
- Corporate base
- GDP per capita

 

Calgary is very low down that list. Much further down than any other current CPL city, and even much further down than Edmonton, the only city to fold a team so far.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

4 hours ago, P-O said:

I believe it is great we have smaller european clubs coming over...

Definitely no harm with them getting involved with youth clubs up to the L1O sort of level, but can you think of an example of a pro level club in North America like Crystal Palace Baltimore and Rayo Oklahoma City that worked out in the medium to long term? It's a bit like Jamie Vardy in Rochester. The reality that he's not got anything like the same sort of celebrity profile outside the UK as David Beckham soon sets in, and they lose interest.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

6 hours ago, red card said:

Former CPL employee did his master thesis on The Growth of Pro Soccer in Canada: Finding the Right Formula to Grow the Beautiful Game

In short, he wanted to find what cities would be good to home pro soccer clubs. 

When looking at WCs, he found hosting the WC was more of the lighter to get the fire started, other factors made the fire grow. What gets the fire going is traditional soccer foundations, national team success, community support, standards, a vision, and consistent brands, as we saw in USA, KOR, JPN & RSA.

He assumed CPL is using a franchise model where the club eats the YoY cost but the club value grows a shit ton YoY. 

 

Some of the factors in the model used:

Cities that were; 

- decently sized population size (not huge, but above avg)
- generally some level of soccer fandom
- some sporting competition (# of pro teams)
- Corporate base
- GDP per capita

 

As much as I like where London wound up on that list, I think the fact that Halifax is at number 7, well behind Winnipeg, means the methodology would need to be carefully reassessed.

[Sonny Heung-min]

18 hours ago, narduch said:

 

 

Cadiz CF have since 2021 being minority owned by an American firm: US investor plans to take Cádiz CF global: "China is the number one under addressed football market globally" | Off The Pitch

"Ben Harburg is managing partner of MSA Capital, a global investment firm with more than $2 billion in assets under management.
The US investor has purchased 6.5 per cent of LaLiga club Cádiz CF after an 18-month search for a club. He plans to turn Cádiz into a "global club" by promoting them in markets where they have historically had little presence and attracting international sponsors and partners. Harburg says he will leverage his existing relationships in countries like China, where he is based, to partner with the "next wave" of Chinese companies "going global".
Ben Harburg realises it sounds ambitious.

Cádiz CF is not, after all, one of the clubs who come to mind when you think of those with a global presence.

The LaLiga club from the southwest of Spain have spent most of their 111-year history outside the top flight. Last season’s 12th-place finish – their first season in Primera Division for 14 years – was their joint-best ever."

Sounds like Canada could fit the "markets where they have historically had little presence and attracting international sponsors and partners."

I don't know if Cadiz fans are happy with their owners, would be a good thing to research.

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

10 hours ago, Soccerpro2 said:

Baaaad idea. Smaller European clubs trying to own clubs in the NASL/USL has been a disaster. They just don’t have the capital and things can get bad quick.

It's possible. Rayo Vallecano tried this in USL, and it did not really go that far, it was misconceived. I'll comment on this apart below, the specific case of Cádiz.

[Kingston]

6 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

As much as I like where London wound up on that list, I think the fact that Halifax is at number 7, well behind Winnipeg, means the methodology would need to be carefully reassessed.

While acknowledging that we don't know the methodology, I'd say not necessarily.  This predicts which cities would have the right conditions for a CPL team to be successful.  The ownership still needs to make it happen - the potential isn't going to realize itself.

[jonovision]

24 minutes ago, Kingston said:

While acknowledging that we don't know the methodology, I'd say not necessarily.  This predicts which cities would have the right conditions for a CPL team to be successful.  The ownership still needs to make it happen - the potential isn't going to realize itself.

I think there's room to criticize the methodology. Winnipeg will have scored well on the criteria some sporting competition (# of pro teams), especially for a city of its size, but the size of the city does limit how much support they can offer, and I think supporting an NHL team (smallest city in the league) and CFL team (2nd smallest city) is already a challenge, and not a boon to future entrants into the market. Without a huge interest in soccer locally, many of the fans that go to Valour games are the same ones buying tickets to Bombers and Jets. These are major headwinds to work against.

Halifax will have scored poorly on the same criteria, and I wonder if that one really works.

Edited November 9, 2023 by jonovision

[Unnamed Trialist]

4 hours ago, Sonny Heung-min said:

Cadiz CF have since 2021 being minority owned by an American firm: US investor plans to take Cádiz CF global: "China is the number one under addressed football market globally" | Off The Pitch

"Ben Harburg is managing partner of MSA Capital, a global investment firm with more than $2 billion in assets under management.
The US investor has purchased 6.5 per cent of LaLiga club Cádiz CF after an 18-month search for a club. He plans to turn Cádiz into a "global club" by promoting them in markets where they have historically had little presence and attracting international sponsors and partners. Harburg says he will leverage his existing relationships in countries like China, where he is based, to partner with the "next wave" of Chinese companies "going global".
Ben Harburg realises it sounds ambitious.

Cádiz CF is not, after all, one of the clubs who come to mind when you think of those with a global presence.

The LaLiga club from the southwest of Spain have spent most of their 111-year history outside the top flight. Last season’s 12th-place finish – their first season in Primera Division for 14 years – was their joint-best ever."

Sounds like Canada could fit the "markets where they have historically had little presence and attracting international sponsors and partners."

I don't know if Cadiz fans are happy with their owners, would be a good thing to research.

 

Let's take a look at this.

First, he only has 6.5%. He lived in Cádiz when he was young (in the port area, not the old city-- Cádiz is very much worth visiting on a lot of levels). He now is based in China and has strong contacts there, but that is nothing new, there is a lot of Chinese investment in football (and also government restrictions on Chinese investors abroad).

The majority at 80% belongs to Vizcaino and Contreras, then there is a guy named Pino who had? 19%. So the guy with 6.5 has no controlling interest. I am not sure who he bought his shares from.

Cádiz also has a very fascinating history from the 90s when, instead of Atlético buying players from them, they bought the team then controlled player contracts, for 2 years, which is how they got Kiko Narvaez, the great striker who also played for Spain. 

I'm insinuating that there is a historical relationship between the clubs and there could be a connection there to mediate Cádiz's interest in CPL.

That said, there is no reason to think Cádiz could really benefit at all from having a Canadian franchise. They are not going to do any marketing, it won't even really help tourism from Canada to Andalusia. It makes little sense to me.

As is, I suppose Atlético de Madrid has a bit of an uptick in terms of recognition and marketing in Canada, but they are a team playing in Champions and a top 15 team in the world, probably. But to what value?

Cádiz has a big stadium, a great tradition, excellent fans (I went to their away Cup game last Wednesday, vs. Badalona Futur near Barcelona, and they filled an endzone with fans). But they are not going to benefit in any tangible way by buying a CPL team. 

Totally different is if this guy is looking at getting his feet into football in different places and wants to take a stab at it with a relatively low investment. If they link it to Cádiz as a way of extending the football structure abroad, fine, but it won't be as thorough as At Ottawa, who have not shown to be far superior to the rest in CPL in any case. 

Last thing: I'd prefer to have a La Liga team do this that is also committed to the women's game, like Atlético. Bilbao, Levante, one of the strong clubs with a great women's program, because then you could double up for a women's league and the effect would be multifold.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[narduch]

22 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

People who are still conflating the number of NDAs that have been signed at some point with the number of groups that are actively interested are difficult to take seriously. 16 groups actively want to get into an 8 team league and buy a share of CSB despite all the recent controversy = over egging the pudding in a big way.

Northern Tribune used to provide critical insight and reveal information that the league would probably have preferred to keep under wraps but now it just churns out click bait and an over-exhuberent version of the league's preferred marketing spin. Guess Thomas Nef no longer being involved is the probable explanation.

The market that actually had a stadium plan that was being actively pursued and a named interested investor was Saskatoon and that fell through this past season. Northern Tribune no longer appears to be peddling the notion that Joe Belan is going to reenter the fray so I guess we have finally reached acceptance on the five stages of grief where that was concerned.

Also worth noting that David Clanachan and Windsor doesn't even rate a mention in this article despite being awarded exclusive CanPL rights at the beginning of last year. 

Don't really think it's fair for you to malign Northern Tribune like that.

They had 2 pretty interesting tidbits of info recently (777 out of York running, Cadiz involvement). Not bad considering the resources they have vs. other reporters

Edited November 9, 2023 by narduch