Canadian Dual Nationals 2.0 Edition, Chase for the 5 stars

[Pasta88]

13 minutes ago, jhoops__ said:

Its illogical to turn down a talent like Yamal, Musiala because they didn’t grow up here…

Athletic Club would turn them down and rightfully be applauded for it. Why sacrifice your team’s culture just to win? If you want to watch the best of what Spain and Germany/England has to offer then you can watch their national teams.

[Pasta88]

3 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I think it’s logical to assume we had a better chance with Hargreaves and gave him more than we gave Donovan. Therefore we feel he owes us more and it hurts more.  
 

But just because Hargreaves hurts more, doesn’t mean we should reject Donovan…. Odd logic 

It depends on what you want to the national team to represent. If you want the team to represent the footballing landscape in Canada then you logically reject a player who hasn’t even lived in Canada. Obviously others would rather win at all costs, which I disagree with.

[Dominic94]

Imagine the result if we had Tomori, Kadioglu and Cristante… guys who could never have imagined this run.

if you’re a Sigur, Jebbison and Koleosho…. You don’t have to imagine you know what can be.

[jordan]

26 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Do we have an updated dual list? 
kolo

jebbison

sigur

farsi

abzi 

Goodman 

Sali

Holmes?

pos?

any other pro names I’m missing?  Obviously a guy like smith is a dual but prospects hardly count. 
 

Van Eerden getting minutes in J league 3 on loan from Yokohama.

Heward-Belle is the starter at Western United.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

13 minutes ago, Pasta88 said:

It depends on what you want to the national team to represent. If you want the team to represent the footballing landscape in Canada then you logically reject a player who hasn’t even lived in Canada. Obviously others would rather win at all costs, which I disagree with.

The rules international football are not what you want, haven't been for a while and I would put my house on them not changing that way in the future.

If that affects your enjoyment of game - fair enough - but it is entertainment that you can choose to consume or not, at the end of the day. 

[InglewoodJack]

6 minutes ago, Dominic94 said:

Imagine the result if we had Tomori, Kadioglu and Cristante… guys who could never have imagined this run.

if you’re a Sigur, Jebbison and Koleosho…. You don’t have to imagine you know what can be.

Would people hate this team if we batted 100% on our dual nationals? Bounou in net, Tomori part of a back 3, guys like Mitrovic, Morris, Sigur as bench depth too. 

 

22 minutes ago, Pasta88 said:

Athletic Club would turn them down and rightfully be applauded for it. Why sacrifice your team’s culture just to win? If you want to watch the best of what Spain and Germany/England has to offer then you can watch their national teams.

What’s our team culture? Canada is a country whose promise to the world is “come here and become one of us”. Why should it be any different when it comes to sport? Guys like Arfield and Wotherspoon were integral in making this team competitive before our golden generation took over, and both of those guys are only Canadian on a technicality, but they’ve given more for our country than… a lot of people. A guy like De Fougerolles who is of Canadian descent wants to play for Canada because his dad is Canadian. Our best baseball player was born and raised in California. This is who we are. 

[Bigandy]

Bonou 

buchanan Tomori cristante kadioglu

koleosho staq kone sigur davies

david  

 

what a team this would be. 

[Pasta88]

23 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Would people hate this team if we batted 100% on our dual nationals? Bounou in net, Tomori part of a back 3, guys like Mitrovic, Morris, Sigur as bench depth too. 

 

What’s our team culture? Canada is a country whose promise to the world is “come here and become one of us”. Why should it be any different when it comes to sport? Guys like Arfield and Wotherspoon were integral in making this team competitive before our golden generation took over, and both of those guys are only Canadian on a technicality, but they’ve given more for our country than… a lot of people. A guy like De Fougerolles who is of Canadian descent wants to play for Canada because his dad is Canadian. Our best baseball player was born and raised in California. This is who we are. 

This is not who we are. The Canadian NT has largely been represented by players raised in Canada. This is mostly the same across all sports, Freddie Freeman aside.

If we are anything related to this topic, it’s a country who unfortunately develops players for other countries (Hargreaves, de Guzman, Flores, Mitrovic, Yankov).

Hopefully Canadian developed centrebacks excel enough to keep LDF out of the Canadian lineup going forward.

[DrunkOffPunch]

So someone born in a foreign country with foreign parents but moved to Canada at 9 and moved away at 12 is fine but a guy that has Canadian parents, visits his family in Canada, but was born and grew up outside of Canada isn’t?

[Pasta88]

10 minutes ago, DrunkOffPunch said:

So someone born in a foreign country with foreign parents but moved to Canada at 9 and moved away at 12 is fine but a guy that has Canadian parents, visits his family in Canada, but was born and grew up outside of Canada isn’t?

Yes exactly. Player B never played the sport in Canada so why should he be on the country’s national team? Player A, while presumably with a bigger tie to another country, at least played three years in Canada growing up.

Player B likely identifies more with Canada, which is great for him, but shouldn’t be relevant to eligibility for a football tournament imo.

[costarg]

10 minutes ago, Pasta88 said:

Yes exactly. Player B never played the sport in Canada so why should he be on the country’s national team? Player A, while presumably with a bigger tie to another country, at least played three years in Canada growing up.

Player B likely identifies more with Canada, which is great for him, but shouldn’t be relevant to eligibility for a football tournament imo.

I get it, but lets be real.  If Spain, Italy, France, etc... have adopted this methodology and will cap tie anyone who can contribute, we also need to if we want to compete.  Bottom line, I want to compete.

[frmr]

54 minutes ago, Pasta88 said:

Yes exactly. Player B never played the sport in Canada so why should he be on the country’s national team? Player A, while presumably with a bigger tie to another country, at least played three years in Canada growing up.

Player B likely identifies more with Canada, which is great for him, but shouldn’t be relevant to eligibility for a football tournament imo.

Because rules.

You're welcome to write Fifa a strongly worded letter detailing your opinion on the matter, though I have a feeling they won't really care. If I were you I wouldn't let it keep you up at night, and instead hope that Canada can add some much needed depth in dual nationals. Many of which we have lost to other countries in the past. Of all the things you can take a moral stance on, this seems pretty arbitrary.

[DrunkOffPunch]

1 hour ago, Pasta88 said:

Yes exactly. Player B never played the sport in Canada so why should he be on the country’s national team? Player A, while presumably with a bigger tie to another country, at least played three years in Canada growing up.

Player B likely identifies more with Canada, which is great for him, but shouldn’t be relevant to eligibility for a football tournament imo.

But player B did, just not for a club.

[toontownman]

3 hours ago, Bigandy said:

Do we have an updated dual list? 
kolo

jebbison

sigur

farsi

abzi 

Goodman 

Sali

Holmes?

pos?

any other pro names I’m missing?  Obviously a guy like smith is a dual but prospects hardly count. 
 

Think Holmes still isn't eligible, even with the new law change.

Hopefully that does open doors for a few other players to pop up.

Be all end all it's time CSN forum members started pulling their weight and whoring themselves across the world. Obviously I'm out as that would actually make the talent pool weaker.

[narduch]

I don't think that law actually changed. Or it least it was never codified.

Not sure it's really a priority for a lame duck Prime Minister either.

You would probably need a good labour lawyer if you really wanted to get citizenship via that rule. And I'm not sure there is the will here

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

16 minutes ago, narduch said:

I don't think that law actually changed. Or it least it was never codified.

Not sure it's really a priority for a lame duck Prime Minister either.

You would probably need a good labour lawyer if you really wanted to get citizenship via that rule. And I'm not sure there is the will here

They got an extension on changing the law from the courts - which said they had to change it in the first place.

The issue for Holmes might be this:

"Bill C-71 would allow a Canadian parent born abroad who has a substantial connection to Canada to pass on citizenship to their child born abroad beyond the first generation. It would also provide them with access to the direct grant of citizenship for their child born abroad and adopted beyond the first generation.

To demonstrate a substantial connection to Canada, a Canadian parent who was born abroad would need to have a cumulative 1,095 days of physical presence in Canada before the birth or adoption of the child."

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/news/2024/05/bill-c-71-an-act-to-amend-the-citizenship-act-2024.html

 

If I understand that and his situation correctly, in real terms:

His grandparent is Canadian but both he and his applicable parent were born in the UK, so the applicable parent would have needed to have lived in Canada for that amount of time in order to pass their citizenship on to him. 

Edited July 10 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Pasta88]

37 minutes ago, frmr said:

Because rules.

You're welcome to write Fifa a strongly worded letter detailing your opinion on the matter, though I have a feeling they won't really care. If I were you I wouldn't let it keep you up at night, and instead hope that Canada can add some much needed depth in dual nationals. Many of which we have lost to other countries in the past. Of all the things you can take a moral stance on, this seems pretty arbitrary.

It has nothing to do with morals and it doesn’t keep me up at night. But every so often it’s fun to spread the good word in hopes that other fans see the light.

I will, however, keep rooting for us to “lose out” on such players and for the team to continue being largely Canadian raised. Just as you and others can hope for all of the “dual nats” in the world, until we’re like the US and field lineups where half of the starters were raised abroad.

[Approve My Account Pls]

I wont lie, two guys I really wish we were able to convince watching the Euros and AFCON a few months ago are Kadioglu and Marmoush

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

39 minutes ago, Pasta88 said:

 until we’re like the US and field lineups where half of the starters were raised abroad.

I admire your quest but you are deluding yourself here.  8 of 11 of the American starters last game spent significant time in American youth football and one of those was born outside the States.

[Pasta88]

51 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I admire your quest but you are deluding yourself here.  8 of 11 of the American starters last game spent significant time in American youth football and one of those was born outside the States.

It depends on the match for the exact ratio but Robinson, Musah, Balogun, Dest, Tillman and Carter-Vickers are starters/often starters, with Johnny emerging as another potential starter going forward.

For their two Nations League playoff matches against Trinidad in November, they had 6/11 and 5/11 foreign raised starters, for example.

so there is no deluding

Edited July 10 by Pasta88

[InglewoodJack]

4 hours ago, Pasta88 said:

This is not who we are. The Canadian NT has largely been represented by players raised in Canada. This is mostly the same across all sports, Freddie Freeman aside.

If we are anything related to this topic, it’s a country who unfortunately develops players for other countries (Hargreaves, de Guzman, Flores, Mitrovic, Yankov).

Hopefully Canadian developed centrebacks excel enough to keep LDF out of the Canadian lineup going forward.

It is specifically who we are- Canada is a country of immigrants, and it is not only part of our social fabric and national identity, but explicit Canadian law that all of these "non-Canadian developed" players are very much Canadians in their own right. With that said, "canadian developed" seems like an arbitrary line. We can wax poetic about how League1 or the PLSQ is at the forefront of youth development in our country or whatever, but the two CBs ahead of LDF were both developed abroad. Bombito left CS St. Laurent as an irrelevant community college player at like the 275th best college in the states. DC left Canada at 16 as a fourth division player in Germany. These are players who became who they were through their development abroad. 

We should celebrate players like De Fougerolles and others who were not from here but feel connected enough to the country to put on the jersey and represent our nation. Canada is a country that sits at a long table, and we invite anyone willing to come sit with us. I think debating Canadian identity is probably outside of the purpose of this thread, but if we're looking for a team that represents who we are as a country... this is it. Players born and raised here, players just raised here, players who descend from other Canadians, and everyone between. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

37 minutes ago, Pasta88 said:

It depends on the match for the exact ratio but Robinson, Musah, Balogun, Dest, Tillman and Carter-Vickers are starters/often starters, with Johnny emerging as another potential starter going forward.

Backtracking a little?

Robinson, Musah and Balogun are the 3/11.  Dest could be if he could stay healthy.   Tilliman got 1 minute in the tournament, Carter-Vickers 45'.  Those are not starters. Chris Richards has clearly taken over from Carter-Vickers - he is playing regularly at a higher level.

You want to pick a window where Weah and Adams are out and then try to say it is regularly half; I'm sorry, that is deluded.  And one of your examples you couldn't get it up to half.   I notice you skipped the Nations League stuff this year.  The only 2 of your foreign-raised guys that started the final were Robinson and Dest. 

 

Edited July 10 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Pasta88]

1 hour ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Backtracking a little?

Robinson, Musah and Balogun are the 3/11.  Dest could be if he could stay healthy.   Tilliman got 1 minute in the tournament, Carter-Vickers 45'.  Those are not starters. Chris Richards has clearly taken over from Carter-Vickers - he is playing regularly at a higher level.

You want to pick a window where Weah and Adams are out and then try to say it is regularly half; I'm sorry, that is deluded.  And one of your examples you couldn't get it up to half.   I notice you skipped the Nations League stuff this year.  The only 2 of your foreign-raised guys that started the final were Robinson and Dest. 

 

All I said was “until we’re like the US and field lineups where half of the starters were raised abroad.” which happened in a competitive match less than a year ago. Hardly backtracking. I would be embarrassed if we ever even got close to that point.

[Pasta88]

2 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

It is specifically who we are- Canada is a country of immigrants, and it is not only part of our social fabric and national identity, but explicit Canadian law that all of these "non-Canadian developed" players are very much Canadians in their own right. With that said, "canadian developed" seems like an arbitrary line. We can wax poetic about how League1 or the PLSQ is at the forefront of youth development in our country or whatever, but the two CBs ahead of LDF were both developed abroad. Bombito left CS St. Laurent as an irrelevant community college player at like the 275th best college in the states. DC left Canada at 16 as a fourth division player in Germany. These are players who became who they were through their development abroad. 

We should celebrate players like De Fougerolles and others who were not from here but feel connected enough to the country to put on the jersey and represent our nation. Canada is a country that sits at a long table, and we invite anyone willing to come sit with us. I think debating Canadian identity is probably outside of the purpose of this thread, but if we're looking for a team that represents who we are as a country... this is it. Players born and raised here, players just raised here, players who descend from other Canadians, and everyone between. 

Why are we ignoring Cornelius’ and Bombito’s development growing up in Canada?

The rest of the post is irrelevant as far as I’m concerned. I don’t care about our team representing Canada as a nation. I care about our team representing Canadian soccer.
 

The good news for both of us is that it currently does both. The overwhelming majority of our Copa America team are the sons/grandsons of immigrants from different countries and grew up playing soccer in Canada. Let’s keep it that way. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

13 minutes ago, Pasta88 said:

 I would be embarrassed if we ever even got close to that point.

That's honestly your problem, isn't it?