CONCACAF Nations League

[matty]

9 hours ago, Ruffian said:

I have seen posts where some Americans say they do not want to be stuck playing lesser teams like Honduras and Panama.

Americans need to shut up and realise they suck outside of Trumplandia.

[harrycoyster]

17 minutes ago, badname22 said:

would this cap tie players?

 

Yes, with the exception of games against French Guiana, Guadeloupe, Martinique, etc. who are not FIFA members. 

[TRM]

51 minutes ago, dsqpr said:

Obviously I'm just speculating here just like everybody else

Ain't it fun to fill quiet time with speculation? 

51 minutes ago, dsqpr said:

That is many more dates for matches.

Exactly. 

51 minutes ago, dsqpr said:

I expect to see a 2 year cycle but larger groups where each group plays a full round robin and no two groups are at the same "level". Likely 6 or 8 teams in the top group.

So let me take a stab at this. 41 teams. 8 in the top group and we are currently 10th so that puts us in tier2 with a group of probably 14 teams. That would leave 19 of the super small teams in tier3. 

That could be 26 games over 2 years or 13 a year.

Here are the teams that would be in tier2 (9th to 22cd) :

Curaçao, Canada, El Salvador, St. Kitts and Nevis, Nicaragua, Suriname, Guatemala, Antigua and Barbuda, Grenada, Barbados, Belize, Dominican Republic, Guyana, Puerto Rico. 

If we can't field a mostly U23 team against at least the bottom half of those and win then we have bigger problems than I thought. 

I'm not sure how many spots will go through pro/rel but probably 2  with maybe a playoff for a third.
 

 

[jpg75]

1 hour ago, TRM said:

 

And this "functional U21/23 program" is available when and where? It isn't and there isn't anything other than USL affiliation which, given the results of Montreal+Ottawa, I think we both agree won't cut it. The MLS clubs second try at reserve teams is over so we just wait for "third time's the charm"? 

No idea what having a U23 team has to do with USL.

I think it's a program that has been long neglected and would likely have a bigger impact on Senior team player development than any other non-club youth component. A bit of money and organization is all that'a needed.

[TRM]

3 minutes ago, jpg75 said:

No idea what having a U23 team has to do with USL.

Because that was where our 18-22 year old MLS players were getting the vast majority of their playing time and now that is gone. 

3 minutes ago, jpg75 said:

I think it's a program that has been long neglected

I think we actually agree on this point. Scary and kind of weird feeling. 

3 minutes ago, jpg75 said:

and would likely have a bigger impact on Senior team player development than any other non-club youth component. A bit of money and organization is all that'a needed.

All 3 MLS clubs have tried a reserve team, a USL team and now a USL affiliate. The first 2 were abandoned and I don't view the third as viable so the 3 MLS teams will probably try something else next.

The 3 MLS teams recognise the importance of games for this group and were so positive that the USL would fill the gap but have now reverted to minimal "contractual obligations" with MLS to at least have an affiliate. 

I don't know which is worse. Waiting for CPL or waiting for the MLS teams to get their second team figured out. 

[jpg75]

It is up to the MLS clubs to sort out their development situation, you can't ask the CSA to take over the development of players at an age where they should be playing meaningful games every week with a path to 1st team club minutes....Unless the MLS clubs are willing to foot the bill on a national U23 residency that plays dozens of matches per year - and that's not going to happen.

[TRM]

1 minute ago, jpg75 said:

It is up to the MLS clubs to sort out their development situation,

And they are now on try #3 (affiliation with very limited minutes)

1 minute ago, jpg75 said:

you can't ask the CSA to take over the development of players

I've never said that. If fact I said the teams would develop them but that this is a great opportunity 

1 minute ago, jpg75 said:

at an age where they should be playing meaningful games every week with a path to 1st team club minutes...

Which none of the 3 MLS teams have and I predict affiliation will reduce the minutes drastically.

 

1 minute ago, jpg75 said:

.Unless the MLS clubs are willing to foot the bill on a national U23 residency that plays dozens of matches per year - and that's not going to happen.

I wouldn't be so sure. A cost sharing approach could work out better than spending a million a year on the USL teams did so the clubs might be open to the idea. 

[dyslexic nam]

I still think the lost opportunity for the senior guys is too high a price to pay. 

You are essentially advocating the use of an international footy mechanism to fill a gap in the club system. To me, that is the wrong approach.  We should use the mechanism as it was intended - to be a way for our senior guys to get more meaningful matches together - while finding another avenue to address the club situation. I have never advocated the CSA using a heavy handed approach to the MLS teams, but this is an area where I think they could assert themselves.  Insisting on a functional and stable residency program as a condition of their sanctioning is not unreasonable.

[CanadianSoccerFan]

I'm in favour of the top division being only 8 teams even if that means we're not in it.  It makes a counterbalance to the expanded 16 team gold cup.

[TRM]

51 minutes ago, dsqpr said:

From the link posted earlier which, shamefully, I only just noticed:

 To seed teams into their respective leagues, the League of Nations will begin with a preliminary series of matches played across four different dates beginning in September 2018.

So the bogus FUFA rankings will not determine the top group, thankfully. We are definitely better than 10th!

(Sorry, got a bit off topic there. Please return to discussing U23, U21, and MLS.)

That is for "seeding into their leagues" so they sound like they already have league members decided. To do that would require some use of the FIFA ranking. If our prelim opponents are Mexico & USA etc then we are in the top and if it is El Salvador & Nicaragua then we are in D2.

Or more entertainingly those games could determine the PRO/REL aspect. Honduras, T&T would play Curacao & Canada to see who gets to be in D1/2. 

I think we are better than 10th as well but you and I don't have a say in it sadly. 

No it is good. You are bringing it back on topic 

Edited November 18, 2017 by TRM

[BenFisk'sBiggestFan]

1 hour ago, dsqpr said:

My expectation is that those games will be used to determine the borderline cases between D1, D2, and D3.

And now that I have actually read the announcement:

41 teams = 6 groups of 6 teams and 1 group of 5 teams.

Each cycle is a round robin between all teams in the same group.

D1: 2 groups of 6. Two group winners play off for championship (maybe 1 vs 2 cross-over semis first). Bottom team in each group is relegated (maybe 5th vs 6th cross-over relegation matches).

D2. 2 groups of 6. Top team in each group is promoted (or maybe a 2 vs. 1 cross over play-off to determine 2 promoted teams). Bottom  team in each group relegated; 5th place teams play-off and loser relegated.

D3. 2 groups of 6, 1 group of 5. Top team in each group promoted.

Alternative D2/D3 Promotion/Relegation:

D3: Three 2nd place teams and best 3rd place team are paired and play-off. The 2 winners play-off against the two D2 5th place teams and the two winners play in D2 next cycle.

With that type of schedule I can see why Mexico is a bit upset. Works out great for Canada but Mexico will be stuck playing teams worse than Canada consistently. I guess they could use those games to play their u23s though. It just sucks for them that they won’t get many games against top teams. I mean, they were hardly even challenged in the hex. This league will be a walk in the park for them...

[harrycoyster]

16 minutes ago, BenFisk'sBiggestFan said:

With that type of schedule I can see why Mexico is a bit upset. Works out great for Canada but Mexico will be stuck playing teams worse than Canada consistently. I guess they could use those games to play their u23s though. It just sucks for them that they won’t get many games against top teams. I mean, they were hardly even challenged in the hex. This league will be a walk in the park for them...

And that's an issue really. If there are too many teams in the top division, the top teams won't take it seriously like the off year Gold Cup.

[BenFisk'sBiggestFan]

4 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

And that's an issue really. If there are too many teams in the top division, the top teams won't take it seriously like the off year Gold Cup.

Exactly. At the level Canada is at right now it won’t be a problem. They will have more games to play, and theoretically more competitive games. It is better than 5 friendlies a year... 

[Keegan]

It's almost like the press release speaks directly to Canada from Vic and you gotta love it.  He's very subtly pointing to our situation.. as a team not able to play competitive games because for just about every other team aside from the true minnows of the region everyone plays competitive matches just about every year.  

This is a slippery slope now though.  Are we going to let clubs walk all over us and not call up guys like we currently do for friendly windows?  Because if so, we are going to be poor and missing out on the Gold Cup possibly.  If we can operate like any other national team and get our best teams for windows this is going to be brilliant all around for us.  

[harrycoyster]

6 minutes ago, dsqpr said:

Here is another possibility -- that would cater to Mexico:

41 teams = 6 groups of 6 teams and 1 group of 5 teams.

Each cycle is a round robin between all teams in the same group.

D1: One group of 6. Bottom team is relegated. 5th place team enters promotion/relegation play-off.

D2: Two groups of 6. Group winners play-off and winner is promoted. Loser plays-off against D1 5th place: winner plays in D1, loser in D2. Bottom team in each group is relegated. 5th place in each group enters promotion/relegation play-off.

D3: Three groups of 6 and one group of 5. Four group winners are paired and play-off. The two winners are promoted. Two losers are paired with D2 5th place teams and play-off. Winners play in D2, losers in D3.

There won't be enough match days for a 10 game round robin. The UEFA version is 4-6 games a 2 year cycle depending on if you make the playoffs.

Edited November 18, 2017 by harrycoyster

[CanadianSoccerFan]

8 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

There won't be enough match days for a 10 game round robin. The UEFA version is 4-6 games a 2 year cycle depending on if you make the playoffs.

UEFA has to squeeze in Euro qualifying in addition to the Nations League.  CONCACAF does not have that problem.

[TRM]

2 hours ago, Keegan said:

It's almost like the press release speaks directly to Canada from Vic and you gotta love it.  He's very subtly pointing to our situation.. as a team not able to play competitive games because for just about every other team aside from the true minnows of the region everyone plays competitive matches just about every year.  

This is a slippery slope now though.  Are we going to let clubs walk all over us and not call up guys like we currently do for friendly windows?  Because if so, we are going to be poor and missing out on the Gold Cup possibly.  If we can operate like any other national team and get our best teams for windows this is going to be brilliant all around for us.  

It can be very slippery. You also forgot some players will just say no thanks due to personal issues that may not be injury related. In the end it will come down to squad rotation for the MNT which will test our depth and we aren't that deep (yet but we are improving). It will have to be a 3 way negotiation type of setup with MNT coach, team & player deciding which games they play in. 

More squad rotation would help us grow eventually but may cost us some games in the short term. I can see this helping Mexico because they will field a lot of U23 players against the weaker teams. They are deep enough to do that without concern. That will prep their next generation. 

Edited November 18, 2017 by TRM

[harrycoyster]

17 minutes ago, CanadianSoccerFan said:

UEFA has to squeeze in Euro qualifying in addition to the Nations League.  CONCACAF does not have that problem.

They also don't have an international tournament every summer. 10 match days during the back end of a cycle will be impossible to come by between WCQ, Copa America, and the Gold Cup. Mexico has played a first-team friendly in every available window for the past two years, they played 10 friendlies. And that's counting their 4 warm up games for the Confed Cup and Copa America.

10 games in two years too much IMO. 20 games in a four year cycle is more games than the US and Mexico play in WCQ.

Edited November 18, 2017 by harrycoyster

[CanadianSoccerFan]

28 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

They also don't have an international tournament every summer. 10 match days during the back end of a cycle will be impossible to come by between WCQ, Copa America, and the Gold Cup. Mexico has played a first-team friendly in every available window for the past two years, they played 10 friendlies. And that's counting their 4 warm up games for the Confed Cup and Copa America.

10 games in two years too much IMO. 20 games in a four year cycle is more games than the US and Mexico play in WCQ.

This is taking place on FIFA dates.  Summer tournaments are not an obstacle.  The whole point of this is to fill up the unused FIFA dates with meaningful games instead of friendlies.  

Edited November 18, 2017 by CanadianSoccerFan

[CanadianSoccerFan]

Wade added: “There will be a tournament in 2018 that will help to determine where you sit in the league initially. The tournament will be in the three [international] windows in September, October and November, and that will help to determine where you get placed in the league.

“At one point we were discussing just using the Fifa rankings, but the technical team thought it would be better for teams to play for positions in the league in the initial set-up.”

http://www.royalgazette.com/soccer/article/20171118/wade-nations-league-is-great-for-bermuda

[Gopherbashi]

1 hour ago, harrycoyster said:

They also don't have an international tournament every summer. 10 match days during the back end of a cycle will be impossible to come by between WCQ, Copa America, and the Gold Cup. Mexico has played a first-team friendly in every available window for the past two years, they played 10 friendlies. And that's counting their 4 warm up games for the Confed Cup and Copa America.

10 games in two years too much IMO. 20 games in a four year cycle is more games than the US and Mexico play in WCQ.

The Hex is currently 10 games in a 12 month period - there's no reason why they couldn't do 10 games in a 24 month period if this lets them streamline WCQ.

[snake]

So will we see a CANADIAN B  team again like we did in 2003.

[TRM]

2 hours ago, CanadianSoccerFan said:

Wade added: “There will be a tournament in 2018 that will help to determine where you sit in the league initially. The tournament will be in the three [international] windows in September, October and November, and that will help to determine where you get placed in the league.

“At one point we were discussing just using the Fifa rankings, but the technical team thought it would be better for teams to play for positions in the league in the initial set-up.”

http://www.royalgazette.com/soccer/article/20171118/wade-nations-league-is-great-for-bermuda

Thanks for the link I hadn't seen that one. I still don't see how they will place 41 teams in a tournament in just 3 windows. They will still be basing a lot on current FIFA rankings. 

"final announcement in February" - So I guess we'll find out then. 

Edited November 18, 2017 by TRM

[Zem]

46 minutes ago, TRM said:

Thanks for the link I hadn't seen that one. I still don't see how they will place 41 teams in a tournament in just 3 windows. They will still be basing a lot on current FIFA rankings. 

"final announcement in February" - So I guess we'll find out then. 

It wouldn't be that hard really, I imagine many small teams will opt out and automatically start in D3 and the rest can be split into appropriately-sized groups. There's only three divisions, so the qualifying process doesn't need to be ultra-precise.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, dsqpr said:

In addition to this Nations League, I'd really like to see CONCACAF just ditch the Gold Plate Cup and instead join with South America to have a true Copa America (vs. Copa South America) once every 4 years, to parallel the Euros. 16 teams in the finals, following the format of early World Cups. With a major qualifying tournament, just like the Euros.

Would be beneficial for everybody.

South American fans made the point that if they joined continetial tournaments they should also join WCQs. Which I agree with. Would you really want that?