Canadian Premier League

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

28 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

 ...(including people outside of your axis of evil: McGrane - Young - Rollins),...

What on earth? We are talking about Canadian soccer, not about something like the Syrian civil war. A word like misguided is what I would use. Beyond that you seem to be overlooking the fact that Montagliani met MLSE about the new pro league plans as recently as late last month with the USL scenario being mentioned prominently by MLSE in the Toronto Sun article in the run up to it and MLSE are said by Kurt Larsson on Twitter to still be confident of participating in the aftermath. The CSA also appear to be sanctioning a USL team in Ottawa (highly unlikely that was announced so publicly without an indication informally that was only a formality), which they could have blocked by making another moratorium announcement similar to what happened in 2010 when USL appointed Tony Waiters as a consultant for Canadian expansion and Victoria and London PDL teams were reported to be interested.

[Complete Homer]

11 minutes ago, Dub Narcotic said:

 

@Complete Homer as referenced repeatedly on this thread, work was done this year showing no difference on home attendance when the opponent is either a reserve squad or an independent squad and there is very little overall attendence difference between USL and NASL when just counting the independent teams overall. Spain and Germany can handle reserve squads in the pyramid, and North America has shown it can too.

While this is only one of my criticisms of the USL idea, I would argue that it is an apples and oranges comparison of having B teams in a CPL as opposed to the Americans that have it in USL. In the American situation, you have people who are already fully accepting that there team is in a minor division, and the fanbase is built around that from the start. However, if you are attempting to market CPL as D1A, it will be a transparent charade trotting out TFC II. 

I don't think CPL with a couple B teams would be disasterous - especially if branded seperately it could be ok if it was necessary for league stability. That's a very different situation than trotting out "The Canadian Premier League, a division of the American third division." It will be hard enough to get them to try Canadian soccer at all, we don't need to throw in it being a low-level subordinate to MLS (a league eurosnobs already turn their nose up to).

[Complete Homer]

7 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

What on earth? We are talking about Canadian soccer, not about something like the Syrian civil war. A word like misguided is what I would use. Beyond that you seem to be overlooking the fact that Montagliani met MLSE about the new pro league plans as recently as late last month with the USL scenario being mentioned prominently by MLSE in the Toronto Sun article in the run up to it and MLSE are said by Kurt Larsson on Twitter to still be confident of participating in the aftermath. The CSA also appear to be sanctioning a USL team in Ottawa (highly unlikely that was announced so publicly without an indication informally that was only a formality), which they could have blocked by making another moratorium announcement similar to what happened in 2010 when USL appointed Tony Waiters as a consultant for Canadian expansion and Victoria and London PDL teams were reported to be interested.

I'm throwing in some light humour bud, take it easy

If that's really the way you see it, there's no point in arguing with you about it. To quote Dino Rossi, "Everyone just needs to take a deep breath, it will make sense soon"

[-Hammer-]

1 hour ago, Dub Narcotic said:

@Hammer, your arguments are incoherent when they are not flat out incorrect. You keep on banging on about this salary thing: USL has no cap on salaries. The salaries players get are based on what revenues the club makes. This is true for all clubs at all levels of sport minus the very rare clubs that have sugar daddy owners, and even they often have ulterior motives like getting their cash out of unstable political situations.

You also criticize, in the same post, the USL for not graduating enough players to the top level, but then having their talent drained by graduating too many players to the top level. Which is it? Considering you claim that Cyle Larin, Jonathan Osorio and Kyle Bekker got into MLS 'direct from the Academies'(?), which is flat out wrong, it's pretty clear you have some mistaken ideas about how North American soccer has worked so far.

@Complete Homer as referenced repeatedly on this thread, work was done this year showing no difference on home attendance when the opponent is either a reserve squad or an independent squad and there is very little overall attendence difference between USL and NASL when just counting the independent teams overall. Spain and Germany can handle reserve squads in the pyramid, and North America has shown it can too.

I will concede the salary cap point, only because it isn't a true cap like MLS has. Technically artificially deflating salaries because the majority of teams are playing in a farm league and are unwilling to pay players a decent wage with limited attendance or absurdly low ticket prices ($75 for season tickets in Cincinnati - Not that that is a bad thing in my eyes.) and thus limited financial resources is a different point entirely.

As far as graduating, you'll notice I made the distinction between Canadian graduates and US graduates. The reason is because MLS has perfectly reasonable mandatory US player requirements. They have to farm competitive US players to stay competitive, and thus also improve their national team. They don't need to farm Canadian players to stay competitive because those requirements are paltry and only apply to three teams. This means for the majority of the players in the league (because USL teams are loaded with US players) will get the call when they are on the cusp of the MLS level player because MLS teams have to fill those domestic slots, and the Canadian player who gets on the cusp often isn't worth it given a cheap import is available. It's why the likes to Babouli and Hamilton keep ending up on the MLS bench (usually due to injuries) and get loaned back to the farm.

I also did not say MLS academies, I said academies, of which once more USL teams have no obligation to entertain or start and for the most part, haven't. I am all for expanding our academy system either through MLS academies, independent academies or CPL academies. That said, I would like to see us give well paying jobs at for kids coming out of those academies which the USL fails to provide. Please correct me if I am mistaken by in the case of Larin, did he not play and develop with Sigma FC in 2014 after a short stint with UCONN, both what I would call academy teams, then get drafted and currently plays for Orlando? Please tell me, when did Larin ever play for the USL?

Realistically though, I think Homer is right on this one. I think there is little point in arguing about it at this point.

[Shway]

Question for @-Hammer- @Complete Homer @Kent....and a few other over zealous supporters of the CPL.

Since the CPL will offer upwards of 60K+ salaries, at what price point will you be willing to watch Kyle Bekker, Marcus Haber, Nana Attakora, Manny Aparicio, Keith Makubuya, and the rest of the Canadian player pool who is plying there trade in the 4-6 divisions of the World?  $40, $60, $80, $100 premium seats a game? I'm curious because outside of the 100 super excited supporters willing to fork out whatever cash to watch Canadian D1B soccer...I'm not sure there is signs to show the fans will come. League 1 Ontario, PCSL, and PLSQ is our bench mark, cause the quality won't be much better.

[Gopherbashi]

25 minutes ago, Jahinho Guerro said:

Question for @-Hammer- @Complete Homer @Kent....and a few other over zealous supporters of the CPL.

Since the CPL will offer upwards of 60K+ salaries, at what price point will you be willing to watch Kyle Bekker, Marcus Haber, Nana Attakora, Manny Aparicio, Keith Makubuya, and the rest of the Canadian player pool who is plying there trade in the 4-6 divisions of the World?  $40, $60, $80, $100 premium seats a game? I'm curious because outside of the 100 super excited supporters willing to fork out whatever cash to watch Canadian D1B soccer...I'm not sure there is signs to show the fans will come. League 1 Ontario, PCSL, and PLSQ is our bench mark, cause the quality won't be much better.

My previous response was overly-harsh.  I apologize.

PCSL et al are not the benchmark here; you could never run a pro league with those level of standards.

[Complete Homer]

1 minute ago, Jahinho Guerro said:

Question for @-Hammer- @Complete Homer @Kent....and a few other over zealous supporters of the CPL.

Since the CPL will offer upwards of 60K+ salaries, at what price point will you be willing to watch Kyle Bekker, Marcus Haber, Nana Attakora, Manny Aparicio, Keith Makubuya, and the rest of the Canadian player pool who is plying there trade in the 4-6 divisions of the World?  $40, $60, $80, $100 premium seats a game? I'm curious because outside of the 100 super excited supporters willing to fork out whatever cash to watch Canadian D1B soccer...I'm not sure there is signs to show the fans will come. League 1 Ontario, PCSL, and PLSQ is our bench mark, cause the quality won't be much better.

This is completely speculative, but I would expect them to launch with NASL-level prices (150 - 650 depending on seats). I really doubt they expect profit anytime soon, soccer is a growth industry. 

Personally, I doubt they are starting off with a domestic quota high enough to make quality as poor as you think. They were already backing off it, from what Rollins said in February as a followup to the Hamilton Spec article. If it is a 75% quota, the quality will probably sink to sub USL levels, but even then L1O/PCSL/PLSQ is not the benchmark. Those teams aren't marketed, play on high school fields, etc. NASL teams are the better comparison

[Pqhbv]

It's been mentioned before, regarding the USL and its absence of a domestic player quota, if/when they get D2 sanctioning USSF requires a domestic player quota to be in place. On the other side of it regarding their salaries, there is a players union forming which would likely raise salaries, although IIRC there is a salary cap/restriction on 2/B teams wherein no player may earn more than the minimum entry level contract of a first team player...

[Gopherbashi]

Remember that putting together a professional league is not solely about the on-field product; it's also (I'd personally argue primarily) about the off-field product.  You need infrastructure, you need marketing, you need training, you need exposure.  That's where this plan differs from the various D3 leagues, which have none of that.  You need an entertaining experience, both on- and off-field.  You'll never generate the income required to support professional wages if fans are bringing fold-out chairs to the sidelines, no matter how good the players are.

Will some players move up from L1O?  Of course, that's the whole point of this, just as players moved from the old A-League to MLS when it started.  The whole project is based on those type of players being able to move to a higher echelon where a higher wage and a higher grade of training can be paid for.

[Shway]

28 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

This is completely speculative, but I would expect them to launch with NASL-level prices (150 - 650 depending on seats). I really doubt they expect profit anytime soon, soccer is a growth industry. 

Personally, I doubt they are starting off with a domestic quota high enough to make quality as poor as you think. They were already backing off it, from what Rollins said in February as a followup to the Hamilton Spec article. If it is a 75% quota, the quality will probably sink to sub USL levels, but even then L1O/PCSL/PLSQ is not the benchmark. Those teams aren't marketed, play on high school fields, etc. NASL teams are the better comparison

It is purely speculative, but same with the idea of this league, so you can still answer my question if you will lol. 

If they don't have a domestic quota then this league is for foreign talent who are looking for a higher paycheque than what they would get elsewhere? and at that point I'm questioning the purpose of the league. To give 3-4 more average Canadian players a chance? To give the Americans who don't make the MLS the chance to show out in the CPL and make equal money? 

Mind you, I love the idea of the CFL, hate the execution....the only thing Canadian about the league is the rules, and the location of teams... everything else is American. The coaches, the players, the GM's, the everything is majority American....so if this is the bench mark, in regards to creating a CPL similar to the CFL.....I don't want it!!!

I said those youth leagues because thats where the current elite youth play if they are not in an MLS academy (and if they are not in college and I don't really know BC soccer @Gopherbashi ).

[Shway]

5 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said:

Remember that putting together a professional league is not solely about the on-field product; it's also (I'd personally argue primarily) about the off-field product.  You need infrastructure, you need marketing, you need training, you need exposure.  That's where this plan differs from the various D3 leagues, which have none of that.  You need an entertaining experience, both on- and off-field.  You'll never generate the income required to support professional wages if fans are bringing fold-out chairs to the sidelines, no matter how good the players are.

Will some players move up from L1O?  Of course, that's the whole point of this, just as players moved from the old A-League to MLS when it started.  The whole project is based on those type of players being able to move to a higher echelon where a higher wage and a higher grade of training can be paid for.

I agree, except the part about where it differs. Everything you mentioned is club by club based, which comes down to how an owner is willing to market his brand/team....the league can only market what its teams do...if its the other way around the product served may be false advertisement. 

[Kent]

49 minutes ago, Jahinho Guerro said:

Question for @-Hammer- @Complete Homer @Kent....and a few other over zealous supporters of the CPL.

Since the CPL will offer upwards of 60K+ salaries, at what price point will you be willing to watch Kyle Bekker, Marcus Haber, Nana Attakora, Manny Aparicio, Keith Makubuya, and the rest of the Canadian player pool who is plying there trade in the 4-6 divisions of the World?  $40, $60, $80, $100 premium seats a game? I'm curious because outside of the 100 super excited supporters willing to fork out whatever cash to watch Canadian D1B soccer...I'm not sure there is signs to show the fans will come. League 1 Ontario, PCSL, and PLSQ is our bench mark, cause the quality won't be much better.

For me personally, I will pay whatever the ticket asks me to pay. For the sake of people I will try to drag to games, I don't know but I'll say in the neighbourhood of $20 to $50 for a ticket. Probably closer to $20 in the early seasons I would speculate.

P.S. The D3 comment at the end is ridiculous. If there is ever a CPL, I guarantee you there will be more than 20 to 80 fans per game like those leagues seem to get (numbers estimated based on occasionally perusing Rocket Robin L1O game reports, and the one North Toronto Nitros game I have gone to).

[Complete Homer]

11 minutes ago, Jahinho Guerro said:

It is purely speculative, but same with the idea of this league, so you can still answer my question if you will lol. 

If they don't have a domestic quota then this league is for foreign talent who are looking for a higher paycheque than what they would get elsewhere? and at that point I'm questioning the purpose of the league. To give 3-4 more average Canadian players a chance? To give the Americans who don't make the MLS the chance to show out in the CPL and make equal money? 

Mind you, I love the idea of the CFL, hate the execution....the only thing Canadian about the league is the rules, and the location of teams... everything else is American. The coaches, the players, the GM's, the everything is majority American....so if this is the bench mark, in regards to creating a CPL similar to the CFL.....I don't want it!!!

I said those youth leagues because thats where the current elite youth play if they are not in an MLS academy (and if they are not in college and I don't really know BC soccer @Gopherbashi ).

I didn't say that there won't be a domestic quota, I'm just saying that it might not be as high as reported way back (~75%) while it may start lower and have a slow escalation of the quota (like what was stated around February). I did a workup on the Canadian player pool a while ago demonstrating that a 30-50% initial quota with an annual escalation of 5% was feasible by aiming at players who already only make ~60k or less abroad. Looking at the list of the players, I'd say we would be looking in the NASL/USL range of quality. Not all of them would obviously be available year 1, and gaps in depth would be filled by L1O/PLSQ types, but overall I would not be horribly worried about the quality of the league, unless they are adamant about an extremely high domestic quota from day 1

Note, I'm just linking that workup as an example of why I think the quality would be fine, I know lots of people want to start with a 75% quota and think it is feasible, I'm not attempting to restart that debate.

[C2SKI]

1 hour ago, Jahinho Guerro said:

Question for @-Hammer- @Complete Homer @Kent....and a few other over zealous supporters of the CPL.

Since the CPL will offer upwards of 60K+ salaries, at what price point will you be willing to watch Kyle Bekker, Marcus Haber, Nana Attakora, Manny Aparicio, Keith Makubuya, and the rest of the Canadian player pool who is plying there trade in the 4-6 divisions of the World?  $40, $60, $80, $100 premium seats a game? I'm curious because outside of the 100 super excited supporters willing to fork out whatever cash to watch Canadian D1B soccer...I'm not sure there is signs to show the fans will come. League 1 Ontario, PCSL, and PLSQ is our bench mark, cause the quality won't be much better.

Significantly more than I'm willing to pay to see teams from Harrisburg, Wilmington, or Bethlehem come to town.

 

There are casuals that won't recognize subtle differences in quality. They'll pay because they want to see their city compete in a meaningful competition. A Div 3 US league doesn't count. At this point I fully understand the rationalizations against this league, but people need to understand that a national competition is important to some people.

[-Hammer-]

31 minutes ago, Jahinho Guerro said:

It is purely speculative, but same with the idea of this league, so you can still answer my question if you will lol. 

If they don't have a domestic quota then this league is for foreign talent who are looking for a higher paycheque than what they would get elsewhere? and at that point I'm questioning the purpose of the league. To give 3-4 more average Canadian players a chance? To give the Americans who don't make the MLS the chance to show out in the CPL and make equal money? 

Mind you, I love the idea of the CFL, hate the execution....the only thing Canadian about the league is the rules, and the location of teams... everything else is American. The coaches, the players, the GM's, the everything is majority American....so if this is the bench mark, in regards to creating a CPL similar to the CFL.....I don't want it!!!

I said those youth leagues because thats where the current elite youth play if they are not in an MLS academy (and if they are not in college and I don't really know BC soccer @Gopherbashi ).

The rules, location of the teams and the import player rule which requires every squad's roster be composed of around 45% Canadian players and a minimum of 40% Canadian players must be in starting lineup and on the field at all times (of which there are far more substitutions then in soccer thus a bench also composed of Canadians).

Canadian in this case defined as

1) Canadian Citizen at time of signing his first contract

2) A Player classified as as non-import prior to May 31st 2014 (The CFL had old import rules that allowed for foreign non-US players to be classified as non-imports. This is a grandfather clause)

3) A player who was physically a resident in Canada for an aggregate period of 5 years prior to turning 18 (So that Canadian born players who go to US Colleges are still classified as Canadians)

So, while you are right, the majority are US players...a ratio that closely mirrors most major soccer league domestic requirements. Given MLS's requirement is 66% domestic on the roster and effectively around a 27% starting requirement (it varies with team to team depending on slots and such feel free to correct my math on that one), I would say they are comparable.

[-Hammer-]

8 hours ago, Jahinho Guerro said:

Question for @-Hammer- @Complete Homer @Kent....and a few other over zealous supporters of the CPL.

Since the CPL will offer upwards of 60K+ salaries, at what price point will you be willing to watch Kyle Bekker, Marcus Haber, Nana Attakora, Manny Aparicio, Keith Makubuya, and the rest of the Canadian player pool who is plying there trade in the 4-6 divisions of the World?  $40, $60, $80, $100 premium seats a game? I'm curious because outside of the 100 super excited supporters willing to fork out whatever cash to watch Canadian D1B soccer...I'm not sure there is signs to show the fans will come. League 1 Ontario, PCSL, and PLSQ is our bench mark, cause the quality won't be much better.

I'd say between 20-50 a ticket, with more money on private boxes. Given in an 8 team league, that plays 10 home games each year (4 outside division, 6 inside division) the math works out to

$20 x 5000 attendance x 10 games = 1,000,000 - Divided among 20 players = 50K a year. There obviously wiggle room there, and as your league expands you increase revenue over time.

Then you use your other revenue streams like Broadcast, Sponsorship, Concessions, Merchandise, Friendlies and V-Cup games to cover your other costs.

[Gopherbashi]

2 hours ago, -Hammer- said:

I'd say between 20-50 a ticket, with more money on private boxes. Given in an 8 team league, that plays 10 home games each year (4 outside division, 6 inside division) the math works out to

$20 x 5000 attendance x 10 games = 1,000,000 - Divided among 20 players = 50K a year. There obviously wiggle room there, and as your league expands you increase revenue over time.

Then you use your other revenue streams like Broadcast, Sponsorship, Concessions, Merchandise, Friendlies and V-Cup games to cover your other costs.

On the minus side, don't forget salaries for coaches, training staff, operations, marketing, and other front office stuff.

[-Hammer-]

4 hours ago, Gopherbashi said:

On the minus side, don't forget salaries for coaches, training staff, operations, marketing, and other front office stuff.

True, however a big benefit these owners may have is the ability to find cost savings though running other organisations. I mean, if you have CFL & NHL teams operating teams then you already have a lot of the operations, front office and marketing staff and infrastructure already in place that's being covered by your other properties. You just need to expand it slightly for your new one. Heck, Calgary and Ottawa already do it with great ease from my understanding.

The other stream-cost which you will have to face is an academy and team cost. Now in theory, given the existence of other clubs like Sigma and Durham whose operations more or less stand alone, this is revenue neutral. That said, I just don't have a good concept or breakdown of what an academy's cost and revenues would be.

[masster]

Watching the festive atmosphere at the TFC game tonight, I can't help but think that the CPL timing has missed a great opportunity. TFC was in the dumps for a long time and there were a lot of frustrated fans that probably would have been open to attached themselves to something else. Having a viable team in Canada's largest media market will be a lot more difficult now if TFC can build off this success.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

It was always a fool's errand and it's no different in Montreal and Vancouver. Assuming the reported solution on domestic player rules is a sensible one, it will also soon become a lot more difficult to push a narrative of MLS being anti-Canadian.

Can remember when Dino Rossi and his podcasting friends were trying to push the CSL as the answer for Canadian soccer and there were interviews with the CSL commissioner expressing concern over FC Edmonton getting to be D2 at NASL level in terms of not knowing what their role was. The implosion of those efforts subsequently led to the whole L1O vs CSL saga and the failure to get most of the non-game fixing CSL groups on board with the Easton Report findings and little if any overall progress for the sport at regional D3 level in southern Ontario.

This CPL stuff will no doubt continue to rumble on in the years ahead, but they are going to need many more investors with serious wealth behind them than Bob Young to make anything truly noteworthy happen and it's worth bearing in mind that OSEG were alleged to be one of those not so long ago and no longer seem to be going along with their program leading to the current angst over the Ottawa Fury's impending sanctioning. Plus ca change and all that.

[Levi Oakey]

18 hours ago, Jahinho Guerro said:

I agree, except the part about where it differs. Everything you mentioned is club by club based, which comes down to how an owner is willing to market his brand/team....the league can only market what its teams do...if its the other way around the product served may be false advertisement. 

I think the point of CPL also includes a lot on Canada's need to market to Canadians. Right now we have the CFL. There is also the CHL which actually for the Memorial Cup gets significant sponsorship. I work at a large multinational insurance company. I can tell you right now they won't go for a CFL sponsorship because our competitors are all over that league. But we have money that we are desperate to spend on promoting our products. The CPL could be a perfect fit.

From a marketing perspective there is a huge difference in sponsoring a team (Say the Montreal Canadians) and a League. We don't really care to sponsor the NHL or MLS because the marketing would conflict with our American corporation. We don't want to sponsor just one NHL team because you can honestly get blowback (Sponsor a Toronto team and watch your Quebec sales plummet).. So there isn't a whole lot of options yet. The CHL and certain NHL events (think winter classic/"World Cup") make sense but a league is significantly better for our investment.

I am not saying that the company I work for will actually sponsor the CPL, but when I raised it, we have started doing some backing research. We aren't the only company that would be interested in this kind of marketing either. We have some very wealthy companies that could really use a Canadian avenue to boost their image. Bombardier is a classic example. Bombardier has a solid reputation in areas of Europe but their Canadian brand has been significantly damaged. They don't want to sponsor The Canadians, or the Leafs or just a couple of NHL or MLS teams. They want to show they are valuable to Canadians and they want that marketing to largely only reach Canadians (in Europe Bombardier advertises itself differently, here they could make a play about how they are such great Canadians).
 

I think this is part of why Montagliani says it isn't just about butts in seats. To have TSN and CBC carrying games provides opportunities for sponsors. The CFL owners I think actually recognize this too, so for them they can also now have two teams to offer to potential sponsors, which might remove some conflicts of interest.

[Gopherbashi]

22 hours ago, -Hammer- said:

True, however a big benefit these owners may have is the ability to find cost savings though running other organisations. I mean, if you have CFL & NHL teams operating teams then you already have a lot of the operations, front office and marketing staff and infrastructure already in place that's being covered by your other properties. You just need to expand it slightly for your new one. Heck, Calgary and Ottawa already do it with great ease from my understanding.

The other stream-cost which you will have to face is an academy and team cost. Now in theory, given the existence of other clubs like Sigma and Durham whose operations more or less stand alone, this is revenue neutral. That said, I just don't have a good concept or breakdown of what an academy's cost and revenues would be.

If the CFL was operating teams, OFFC would be its loudest cheerleader.  I don't think the CFL angle is going to happen, and that's my gut feeling about why this project fell behind some of the original leaked timelines we heard.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

The obvious reason why some CFL owners might have been interested at one point would have been to cash in on a successful 2026 World Cup bid in infrastructure money terms. In a Calgary context, for example, that might have helped pay for the CalgaryNEXT project. Now that Sepp Blatter has gone and the USSF will put in a bid and it has also been opened up to some of the other confederations that's looking like a long shot at best.

[lazlo_80]

He elaborated further on this on the podcast this morning. If you listen to it he basically says Ottawa is moving to CPL next year.

[ted]

^ Woaw, that's huge news.