Canadian Premier League

[Complete Homer]

This is a tangent, but I was curious, anyone familiar with corporate law? I know there is a 50% write-off of losses available, but not exactly certain how it works. Is a specific franchise held by a holding company that posts a loss able to be used as a tax deduction from the company's overall tax bill? That is to say, say a Calgary CPL posts a 1.5 million CAD loss year 1, does that get reduced to 750k via the 50% write-off for losses? Or would that only work if the company lost money as a whole?

If the write-off is applicable in this situation, it would be nice seeing any potential losses halved

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

9 hours ago, Ansem said:

If billionaires are indeed in play here,...

...then why is the league not already announced with a start date of next year? If MLSE think they are going to be participating they have probably been led to believe that by Victor Montagliani:

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/09/19/mls-crunches-the-numbers-and-takes-away-tfcs-x

In the meantime, TFC president Bill Manning and MLSE chairman Larry Tanenbaum will meet with CSA officials, including president Victor Montagliani, later this month to discuss the proposed league.

Toronto’s top brass told the Sun earlier this year they were largely in the dark as to how the so-called “Canadian Premier League” might impact Major League Soccer. But it appears they’re about to find out. “Opportunities for more Canadian players is something Toronto FC wants to support,” Manning told the Toronto Sun last week. “We just have to figure out how we can be involved.

“Is it the right model? Is it some kind of hybrid with the USL? We want to have those conversations and be supportive of it. If the CPL is going to go forward, we want to be involved.”

[Ansem]

8 hours ago, matty said:

Are there any rules preventing MLSE from owning a CPL team?

For the record I agree with you

It's very likely that there are "conflict of interest" rules in place in MLS itself that would prevent an owner to own a team in a rival league. The same would apply to CPL

Joey Saputo owns both Montreal Impact and Serie A Bologna but you can't really call it a conflict of interest as the leagues aren't competing. To Saputo's credit, he's the only one I would trust with a scheme like that (MLS/CPL). He treats both teams on equal ground and he's been creative like signing players to Bologna and including a year in Montreal on their contract.

I don't trust MLSE as they came out treating CPL as a reserve league

[Rheo]

I don't understand why some get all worked up over rumours and conjecture.  Sure this and that might mean this and that would be bad if it happened but none of it has happened.  Way too much negativity here (not just in this thread, in general on the board)  Nothing wrong with questioning things but at least wait until we know what's actually happening.

[matty]

38 minutes ago, Ansem said:

It's very likely that there are "conflict of interest" rules in place in MLS itself that would prevent an owner to own a team in a rival league. The same would apply to CPL

Joey Saputo owns both Montreal Impact and Serie A Bologna but you can't really call it a conflict of interest as the leagues aren't competing. To Saputo's credit, he's the only one I would trust with a scheme like that (MLS/CPL). He treats both teams on equal ground and he's been creative like signing players to Bologna and including a year in Montreal on their contract.

I don't trust MLSE as they came out treating CPL as a reserve league

I know there's some weirdness in Mexico with ownership.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

2 hours ago, Ansem said:

It's very likely that there are "conflict of interest" rules in place in MLS itself that would prevent an owner to own a team in a rival league.

Listen to the words of Victor Montagliani as far back as February:

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/02/16/montagliani-has-a-mountain-to-climb

“This is not something that is mutually exclusive of MLS. This is inclusive.”

What the CSA want out of all this does not necessarily have to neatly coincide with Hamilton, Ontario sensitivities about having to be on level pegging with Toronto in status terms.

[C2SKI]

15 hours ago, Ansem said:

My 2 cents...

If billionaires are indeed in play here, they would never accept investing that much cash into a league to accept reserve teams in it. 

Assuming casual fans would be clueless at what that means is ridiculous. At the minute you let that happen, the league looses value and your growth & revenue potential drops significantly. 

As a billionaire I'd say "see you later".

The best realistically MLSE can hope for is some mechanism to facilitate scouting and transfer of talents. Perhaps some joint venture/cooperation in a CPL2/CHL D2-D3 division within the pyramid. 

MLSE owning a club in both MLS and CPL is a huge conflict of interest. That's a no-brainer right there. That's why MLSE were talking about bringing a reserve team in CPL. Anything else than that is a conflict of interest. 

Same city, same sports, owning 2 teams in different league fighting for the same market? C'mon guys...of course it's a conflict of interest. CPL has no choice but to say no if their goal is a true standalone Division 1 sanction.

There's only a conflict if they're trying to use the same resources to win both leagues. That's how you develop the feeder league mentality.This should never be allowed, and is one of the main drawbacks to the USL for teams not affiliated with MLS clubs. If the teams operate with separate budgets, separate management, and separate player pools they simply become two clubs with the same owner. Roster movement, including short term loans, emergency call ups, or anything else of that nature should be treated as if they were independent clubs. 

[deschamp86]

I would rather not see TFCII (or TFCIII) in the CPL, but it would be hard to turn down MLSE if they are willing to help build the league.

If it were the case that they were allowed to field a team in the CPL, I feel like restrictions should be made such as not being able to use TFC colours or name.

I also feel that loans should be restricted. Throwing an arbitrary number out there, each team should only be allowed to have 3 players on loan at any given time, and short term loans should be disallowed to prevent the team(s) from being used as a farm team

[David C.]

22 hours ago, matty said:

CRAZY IDEA: The NASL says "screw you" to being an American league and instead somehow gets sanctioning from CONCACAF to be a real North American league with like 10 teams in the US, 6 in Canada, 2 in the Caribbean and 2 in Central America.

That would actually be a fascinating "crazy idea". Add a couple of Mexican teams as well, so that you have a presence in all of the major CONCACAF nations and you would have a completely different product on your hands.

[ted]

10 hours ago, Ansem said:

It's very likely that there are "conflict of interest" rules in place in MLS itself that would prevent an owner to own a team in a rival league. The same would apply to CPL

Why? I have never heard of such rules and I don't understand why there would be a conflict of interest. These are not "rival" leagues. These are two leagues, under the same association, at different levels. Since when is ECHL or AHL a rival to the NHL? Why would anyone consider the PCL to be in conflcit with MLB?

[Ansem]

18 hours ago, ted said:

Why? I have never heard of such rules and I don't understand why there would be a conflict of interest. These are not "rival" leagues. These are two leagues, under the same association, at different levels. Since when is ECHL or AHL a rival to the NHL? Why would anyone consider the PCL to be in conflcit with MLB?

It's a conflict of interest to be a major shareholder in 2 teams/company or working for 2 employers that are in competition. That's only one example of conflict of interest. CPL and MLS having teams in Toronto puts them in competition, hence it's a conflict of interest.

•Rival leagues?
In general? No. In Toronto? Yes.

You open a French restaurant tomorrow on my street and I own an Italian restaurant, you wouldn't see me as competition? I would. We might sell different food but we're both restaurants trying to attract the same customers on our street. If you don't think so, you're too nice for your own good and probably shouldn't be an entrepreneur or businessman.

MLSE and MLS might not say it publicly or obvious reasons but a Toronto CPL team is a threat to their monopoly in one of their hottest markets.Nobody likes losing a monopoly.

•These are two leagues, under the same association, at different levels?

They aren't under the same association. MLS is under the USSF and CPL would be under the CSA. The 3 Canadian franchises in MLS needed the CSA sanction to be allow them to operate from our 3 big Canadian markets (FIFA rules). 3 teams doesn't make a division.

You're confusing level of play with division level. We all know that CPL would be below MLS in level of play at first but they would still be sanctioned by the CSA as Division 1 (As per FIFA rules, it's the CSA prerogative). MLS is way way way below EPL but they are still both Division 1, why would CPL be any different? MLS aren't the one deciding that, only the CSA makes that call. So 2 Division 1 teams, from 2 different associations and countries operating in the same market? That's competition.

•Since when is ECHL or AHL a rival to the NHL?

They aren't, NHL the top division and the others are under the NHL as reserve/farm teams. That's what CPL refuses to do.


•Why would anyone consider the PCL to be in conflcit with MLS?

They are trying to attract the same fans to their teams, in Toronto at least. That's the foundation of the word competition.

That's why MLSE went to CPL and we're immediately talking about putting a reserve team in CPL. That's also why Gerber was so quick to brand CPL as a lower league. That's a competition move (aka jerk move). MLSE aren't trying to put a reserve team in CPL out of the goodness of their hearts. As owners, MLSE are dedicated to MLS and Gerber works for them, the owners.

So why the reserve league in CPL? Because MLSE & MLS would retain their MONOPOLY on the Toronto market. Whether you go see one or the other, it's MLS and MLSE making money. Anything outside of that like MLSE owning a independant CPL team with MLS getting anything out of it is a clear conflict of interest. You'll say that it's good for soccer development if TFC was allowed to do that but It's mainly good for MLS and MLSE first, then our national program second.

Why do you think CSA is so adamant on CPL? Because status quo isn't working and doing what MLSE (on behalf for MLS) are proposing is a different kind of status quo but status quo it is nonetheless.

It's called business for a reason and there's no place for sentiments. If MLSE was acting out of the goodness of their hearts, they'd sell TFC back to MLS and start a CPL team throwing all their resources behind the team and new league..but that's bad for business...right? 

For CPL to reach its full potential, there's no going around having franchises in the big 3 markets at some point. Don't expect MLS to lay down and not put up a fight. It's competition

Perhaps MLSE could be a minor shareholder in one of the teams or work out some form of cooperation but I'm skeptical. Outside of loaning players and agreeing not to raid pouch each other's Academy in D3, what's there to talk about?

 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

^^^Obviously didn't take in the Victor Montagliani quote from February that from a CSA standpoint the CPL is "not something that is mutually exclusive of MLS", which only makes sense given an inclusive attitude towards their B teams is the obvious way to have a presence in all three of the major markets. It's obvious why the Ticats don't want that, but the CSA's stated agenda is providing more pro level opportunities for Canadian players. Montagliani has been on record this year during an interview on the FAN590 as stating that cross-border approaches could be the way to do that:

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/index.php?/page/articles.html/_/24th-minute/solution-to-canadians-as-domestics-issue-coming-in-next-month-montagliani-r5546

Montagliani was also asked about the Canadian Premier League project. He again confirmed that the CSA was talking to investors about creating an “inclusive solution” with current professional teams to create more professional opportunities in Canada. On note, he made reference to the possibility of those opportunities coming in “cross border leagues that we control.”

Outside of the earliest reporting on the CanPL where the possibility of a partnership with the NASL to create a “Canadian conference” was suggested, that was the first suggestion that anything other than a Canadian only option was being considered.

You don't get to be head of CONCACAF without knowing how to play all the angles.

[TRM]

>> On note, he made reference to the possibility of those opportunities coming in “cross border leagues that we control.”

What? Okay to me that means we have a CSA approved league that teams in the USA can play in.

While I view that as a breath of fresh air and can see huge advantages to it I fail to see how it would be anything other than a regional D3. I also view it as the death knell for any CPL "D1/A" type status.

Other questions that pop into my mind are "who in the US would want to when they have the USL, NASL and other leagues already filling that space? The only way I could see it working would be if there were zero franchise fees with the CSA league. That would attract interest but would also mean you get the cheaper owners and probably a huge turnover in teams every year.

It is an interesting angle and eminently more practical that a Canada only CPL so we'll see what happens. Hopefully something and the sooner the better. My brain is allowing my heart some cautious optimism on this one.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Bear in mind that the original plan we heard about from Duane Rollins back in 2014 was what basically amounted to a Canadian division of the NASL:

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/index.php?/page/articles.html/_/24th-minute/csa-cfl-and-nasl-to-launch-canadian-league-r4701

CSN has confirmed that the CSA is involved in negotiations with the CFL and NASL to launch an all-Canadian league.

There could be as many as seven teams involved, all affiliated with local CFL teams and playing in CFL stadiums.

...The league would be affiliated with the American NASL. The format would likely resemble Major League Baseball with two distinct leagues operating in close cooperation. There would be some inter-league play and the Soccer Bowl would likely be played between the two champions...

A similar arrangement with the USL as was being mentioned as a possible scenario by Bill Manning in Kurt Larson's article in the Toronto Sun last month would immediately provide 4 teams (assuming the Ottawa Fury get sanctioned OK). Seems to me that's a lot more plausible in business terms than attempting to find eight investors to reinvent the wheel with a league that runs parallel to MLS in a "mutually exclusive" manner rather than being "inclusive" where the existing pro soccer operations are concerned.

 

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

^^^Obviously didn't take in the Victor Montagliani quote from February that from a CSA standpoint the CPL is "not something that is mutually exclusive of MLS", which only makes sense given an inclusive attitude towards their B teams is the obvious way to have a presence in all three of the major markets. It's obvious why the Ticats don't want that, but the CSA's stated agenda is providing more pro level opportunities for Canadian players. Montagliani has been on record this year during an interview on the FAN590 as stating that cross-border approaches could be the way to do that:

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/index.php?/page/articles.html/_/24th-minute/solution-to-canadians-as-domestics-issue-coming-in-next-month-montagliani-r5546

Montagliani was also asked about the Canadian Premier League project. He again confirmed that the CSA was talking to investors about creating an “inclusive solution” with current professional teams to create more professional opportunities in Canada. On note, he made reference to the possibility of those opportunities coming in “cross border leagues that we control.”

Outside of the earliest reporting on the CanPL where the possibility of a partnership with the NASL to create a “Canadian conference” was suggested, that was the first suggestion that anything other than a Canadian only option was being considered.

You don't get to be head of CONCACAF without knowing how to play all the angles.

Exactly... play all the angles. He's coming across as inclusive, cooperative and friendly.

It's called being smart.

CSA won't control the league, CPL owners throught their appointed commissionaire will be the one to setting the tone.

Those investors expect a return on their money and growth. You have another thing coming if you expect them to surrender the 3 big markets and potential revenues  to MLS and take the reserve teams which would crush their credibility as a league.

The CSA was the catalyst of the CPL happening. Once it's formed, the owners call the shots, not CSA or CONCACAF. They must abide to the confederation and associations rules, but that's it.

USSF aren't running MLS. Their owners are through Gerber. CPL ont any different. 

Let's stop talking like CSA and Montagliani will run CPL, those billionaires who owns it will

[Complete Homer]

I wrote a long-ass post that responded to all of this, but really it doesn't matter, the truth will be out by Christmas

In other news, HOW DID WE MISS THIS?

"Soccer Night in Canada" was trademarked ten days ago by CBC!

[Rheo]

5 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

 

In other news, HOW DID WE MISS THIS?

"Soccer Night in Canada" was trademarked ten days ago by CBC!

I missed it because I don't go on trademark websites lol.  Seriously though excellent find and very good news.  Interesting because I had always assumed TSN would be the major broadcasting force involved.  They still may be but very interesting

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

3 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Let's stop talking like CSA and Montagliani will run CPL, those billionaires who owns it will

...if they actually exist. Strange that the Ticats unilaterally registed "Canadian Premier League", if they do. Beyond that, it's the CSA that do the sanctioning, so their opinion matters. There were three rivals for D1 sanctioning in an American context with very different business plans (if the APSL had been selected rather than MLS the three major Canadian markets would have been involved from the outset complete with the Blizzard). In a similar way Montagliani is playing all the angles so the CSA can ultimately select whatever option is looking most likely to succeed and that doesn't necessarily have to be the standalone CPL that Anthony Totera tweets about.

[Ansem]

So happy about the soccer night in Canada.

National broadcast is the best way to show the league and create interest.

[Ansem]

5 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

...if they actually exist. Strange that the Ticats unilaterally registed "Canadian Premier League", if they do. Beyond that, it's the CSA that do the sanctioning, so their opinion matters. There were three rivals for D1 sanctioning in an American context with very different business plans (if the APSL had been selected rather than MLS the three major Canadian markets would have been involved from the outset complete with the Blizzard). In a similar way Montagliani is playing all the angles so the CSA can ultimately select whatever option is looking most likely to succeed and that doesn't necessarily have to be the standalone CPL that Anthony Totera tweets about.

For the life of me, I don't understand that fear of Canada standing alone....

Really don't get

But I like the idea of welcoming American franchise as long as they abide by our rules and we control it.

No reserve team

[Complete Homer]

Honestly a little surprised. Everything off-the-record (and on the record from Rollins) has been saying TSN was the main partner, at least last I heard about 6 weeks ago.

I wonder if this is the "shift in the TV deal" when the TO ownership group came in that some people were talking being the reason for the delay about behind the scenes...hopefully TSN is still involved and the Toronto leverage just helped them get a night on CBC as well as TSN exposure.

Either way, exciting!

[Complete Homer]

8 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

...if they actually exist. Strange that the Ticats unilaterally registed "Canadian Premier League", if they do. Beyond that, it's the CSA that do the sanctioning, so their opinion matters. There were three rivals for D1 sanctioning in an American context with very different business plans (if the APSL had been selected rather than MLS the three major Canadian markets would have been involved from the outset complete with the Blizzard). In a similar way Montagliani is playing all the angles so the CSA can ultimately select whatever option is looking most likely to succeed and that doesn't necessarily have to be the standalone CPL that Anthony Totera tweets about.

They didn't unilaterally do anything. They want to be the league's head office and have spearheaded it from the get-go. Bear in mind CPL was only trademarked by the same address, that doesn't mean the league as an entity is owned by Bob Young.

[Rheo]

30 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

Honestly a little surprised. Everything off-the-record (and on the record from Rollins) has been saying TSN was the main partner, at least last I heard about 6 weeks ago.

I wonder if this is the "shift in the TV deal" when the TO ownership group came in that some people were talking being the reason for the delay about behind the scenes...hopefully TSN is still involved and the Toronto leverage just helped them get a night on CBC as well as TSN exposure.

Either way, exciting!

Few thoughts on this

-My assumption is that it's just more exposure for the league.  Not everyone has cable (although I figure that number is low) but it's still there

-Plus the assumed reason for the TSN participating in the formation league is cheap, controllable, Canadian content which helps with CANCON quota.  Plus with them losing hockey they've invested big in soccer so this goes with that

-CFL is big for them and there will be scheduling conflicts.  It's like Sportsnet giving TSN some ESPN baseball games because there wasn't room for them.

[Complete Homer]

1 minute ago, Rheo said:

Few thoughts on this

-My assumption is that it's just more exposure for the league.  Not everyone has cable (although I figure that number is low) but it's still there

-Plus the assumed reason for the TSN participating in the formation league is cheap, controllable, Canadian content which helps with CANCON quota.  Plus with them losing hockey they've invested big in soccer so this goes with that

-CFL is big for them and there will be scheduling conflicts.  It's like Sportsnet giving TSN some ESPN baseball games because there wasn't room for them.

We should be cognizant that this isn't the only explanation - TSN's rights to MLS expire in a year. It is possible that CBC outbid them for MLS, but that seems very unlikely, considering their stance on spending on sports media in recent years. A dirt cheap deal for CPL seems much more likely.

I agree that a split would be likely if Soccer Night in Canada does refer to CPL. There's just been too much involvement from TSN up to this point for them to pull out, I think. I really doubt either network is paying much anyway

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

It could also easily be to block any other broadcaster from using it given recent changes to trademark law make it easier to do that without proving use (see earlier posts), but definitely an interesting one.