My (probably absurd) solution to Canada's "Soccer Problem"

[mpg_29]

Finally coming to the conclusion that in a world with so much soccer talent and leagues and teams that Canada will never compete internationally without playing hardball, being more protectionist and attempting to do some things unconventionally. The only solution to this IMO is to treat our national team(s) as professional clubs.  

 

There is a lot of talk about setting up a professional domestic league in Canada with quotas requiring a certain percentage of Canadian players.  Sounds good but I'm skeptical it will work especially with MLS, NASL, USL already existing and the fact we are next door the U.S. with it's college system.  This is not even taking into consideration of whether it would be successful in a business sense.  This really only leaves Canada with it's national teams which existed 20 years ago and we know will exist 20 years from now so why not utilize these teams more a professional clubs. 

 

The biggest thing obviously includes paying the players.  Example for senior team: $100,000/yr rate for starters/on the field players.  $50,000/yr rate for bench.  By this I mean if Canada plays 8 games in one year then a on-the-field player would get a $12,500 fee for each game they played in that year...ie $100,000/8 games.  A player on the bench would get half that.  Yes this means each national team would need a couple million dollar player salary budget.

 

The National Teams should be based in a City (Toronto or Vancouver) and Soccer Canada should play hardball and attempt should negotiate with leagues to allow our U20/23 national teams play in a league whether it's NASL or NWSL.  

 

 

Anyway how crazy am I to suggest this?

[king1010]

jesus christ.

 

close thread

[ThatDaveCh]

So representation is contract based? An up and comer with one club will need to remove themselves from their contract to play with their national team under a new contract?

My brain hurts.

[madmonte]

I don't mean to offend, but this is an impossibility for many reasons, and also something I wouldn't even want to see, as it removes player freedom and rights, and infringes on them that if they truly want to play on Canada's team, they have to play on this, in your words, absurd club team for x amount of dollars. 

 

All the truly good players would surpass this CSA budget, play on different teams for more money, and render the idea useless immediately because the teams on the "Canada Club Team" would probably not even be the ones selected for the CMNT.

 

Better to have as many teams for as many players to have opportunities as possible.

 

Quantity CAN produce quality.  Ideas that shrink the player pool should be avoided. 

[mpg_29]

So representation is contract based? An up and comer with one club will need to remove themselves from their contract to play with their national team under a new contract?

My brain hurts.

Well for our senior teams I'm suggesting paying them fee's for national appearances.   I think the money will immediately make it much more serious than what we have now.    But for the under 20's/23's I am sort of suggesting making it an actual club with player salaries that completes in some league.    

[mpg_29]

I don't mean to offend, but this is an impossibility for many reasons, and also something I wouldn't even want to see, as it removes player freedom and rights, and infringes on them that if they truly want to play on Canada's team, they have to play on this, in your words, absurd club team for x amount of dollars. 

 

All the truly good players would surpass this CSA budget, play on different teams for more money, and render the idea useless immediately because the teams on the "Canada Club Team" would probably not even be the ones selected for the CMNT.

 

Better to have as many teams for as many players to have opportunities as possible.

 

Quantity CAN produce quality.  Ideas that shrink the player pool should be avoided.

I'm not suggesting force players to these clubs as I am suggesting to pay the players of the National Teams well.  Besides I think you are kidding yourself if you think the players on our national team are making shit tons of money.  Other than Atiba Hutchinson a lot of the players don't make a lot.

[ted]

Wow, this idea has not been floated here for a couple of years. I'd dig up links to the previous discussions (going all the way back to Network54 days) but why bother?

 

It is absurd.

[BrennanFan]

Finally coming to the conclusion that in a world with so much soccer talent and leagues and teams that Canada will never compete internationally without playing hardball, being more protectionist and attempting to do some things unconventionally. The only solution to this IMO is to treat our national team(s) as professional clubs.  

 

There is a lot of talk about setting up a professional domestic league in Canada with quotas requiring a certain percentage of Canadian players.  Sounds good but I'm skeptical it will work especially with MLS, NASL, USL already existing and the fact we are next door the U.S. with it's college system.  This is not even taking into consideration of whether it would be successful in a business sense.  This really only leaves Canada with it's national teams which existed 20 years ago and we know will exist 20 years from now so why not utilize these teams more a professional clubs. 

 

The biggest thing obviously includes paying the players.  Example for senior team: $100,000/yr rate for starters/on the field players.  $50,000/yr rate for bench.  By this I mean if Canada plays 8 games in one year then a on-the-field player would get a $12,500 fee for each game they played in that year...ie $100,000/8 games.  A player on the bench would get half that.  Yes this means each national team would need a couple million dollar player salary budget.

 

The National Teams should be based in a City (Toronto or Vancouver) and Soccer Canada should play hardball and attempt should negotiate with leagues to allow our U20/23 national teams play in a league whether it's NASL or NWSL.  

 

 

Anyway how crazy am I to suggest this?

 

[mpg_29]

Wow, this idea has not been floated here for a couple of years. I'd dig up links to the previous discussions (going all the way back to Network54 days) but why bother?

 

It is absurd.

 

Yeah but why?  You don't think paying the players fee's for appearances is a good idea?  I think there would be lot less "he is currently unavailable to due to ...." I honestly think it would be a good start for the program.

[Coramoor]

In 10 years the team will be filled with guys making so much more than this, it would be a laughable comparison. People need to be more patient, there is a clear direction and proper talent mentoring going on for the first team basically in the history of the country. Let it happen naturally

[king1010]

Yeah but why?  You don't think paying the players fee's for appearances is a good idea?  I think there would be lot less "he is currently unavailable to due to ...." I honestly think it would be a good start for the program.

 

And where do we get that funding from? thin air? we can barely scrounge up enough money to fly players business class.

 

And players already do get paid for international duty if they finish in the top places at the Gold Cup and World Cup and Confederation Cup.

 

And the idea of an u23 or u20 club team? Not a good idea. Only have one group of national players and the other ones are screwed? You think some rinky dink Canada coach can develop players moreso than club teams around the world.

 

And once again FUNDING..

 

Not even sure why im debating this thread. Its so crazy its not even worth it.

[mpg_29]

In 10 years the team will be filled with guys making so much more than this

 

meh...this type of thing is repeated in Canada all the time.  Every Summer Olympics and every WCQ it's the "next generation of athletes will come along and do better BS".  Nothing is guaranteed.

[Coramoor]

meh...this type of thing is repeated in Canada all the time.  Every Summer Olympics and every WCQ it's the "next generation of athletes will come along and do better BS".  Nothing is guaranteed.

it's not about athletes, it's about training methods and the ability to progress up the chain within Canada, which is something that we haven't had before, now we do. Watch the MLS2 teams play, the individual skill of the players is so much higher than the previous generation, it's absolutely crazy, people just don't have the patience

[madmonte]

I'm not suggesting force players to these clubs as I am suggesting to pay the players of the National Teams well.  Besides I think you are kidding yourself if you think the players on our national team are making shit tons of money.  Other than Atiba Hutchinson a lot of the players don't make a lot.

 

It is well documented what our players make. You'd be surprised at the knowledge level of the posters on this board, I was when i joined a few years ago.

 

Are you aware that Jamaica, two days before the GC started, refused a practice because they weren't paid what the Jamaican association owed them?  Players already receive some compensation for national team duties, in other words.

 

I admire your enthusiasm, but there is very little business acumen involved in this idea.  

 

But yeah, our current crop of young guys isn't good enough going right down to the 16 year old level...I don't see any huge improvements for a while...my hope is that if there are a bunch more teams in Canada, with coaches getting paid, that coaching becomes better in Canada at the youth level.

 

That's something that didn't exist 15 years ago and is only STARTING to exist now, similar to USA, and similar to Canadian hockey and now basketball.

I fully believe that if we can get more successful pro teams, that this is the path.  I don't see why your path is better than this, or will be the one that solves the technical ability crises that has plagued Canada for so long.

[mpg_29]

It is well documented what our players make.  Are you aware that Jamaica, two days before the GC started, refused a practice because they weren't paid what the Jamaican association owed them?  

 

I admire your enthusiasm, but there is very little business acumen involved in this idea.  

 

Look I get it that there is no funding to pay players but I'm not hearing convincing arguments to why IF WE DID pay out fees for appearances that it wouldn't bolster the seriousness of our national team.  In a lot of cases playing for the Canada's national mens team is a second option if they don't make the another national team first.  There is no serious history or tradition of mens soccer in Canada so sorry the "playing for your country" is a bunch of bs.  Injecting money into the equation will make it up for that.

[madmonte]

They do get paid.  I already said that.  The amount you are talking about is what is in question.  take the men's world cup.  Getting to the round of 16 earned the US team $9,000,000.  If our players start earning those prizes, then we can talk about their share of it.

[king1010]

Look I get it that there is no funding to pay players but I'm not hearing convincing arguments to why IF WE DID pay out fees for appearances that it wouldn't bolster the seriousness of our national team.  In a lot of cases playing for the Canada's national mens team is a second option if they don't make the another national team first.  There is no serious history or tradition of mens soccer in Canada so sorry the "playing for your country" is a bunch of bs.  Injecting money into the equation will make it up for that.

 

Lmao wtf.

 

So you're telling me if we throw 100k at JDG2 or Whoregraves or Hoilett they will all of a sudden be like o shit 100k a year Im going to play with Canada. Nevermind the fact i have a $2 million club contract.

 

Why the hell do we have to prove that this asinine idea wouldn't work. I think you're the one that should prove through historical examples that this pie in the sky ridiculous idea would work.

 

You realize throwing money at problems doesn't work in all cases of life, not just soccer.

 

"please please play for us, here is a boatload of money to play for our country." what the hell is this? club football? is this Qatar

 

jesus this thread needs to be locked

[mpg_29]

Lmao wtf.

 

So you're telling me if we throw 100k at JDG2 or Whoregraves or Hoilett they will all of a sudden be like o shit 100k a year Im going to play with Canada. Nevermind the fact i have a $2 million club contract.

 

Why the hell do we have to prove that this asinine idea wouldn't work. I think you're the one that should prove through historical examples that this pie in the sky ridiculous idea would work.

 

You realize throwing money at problems doesn't work in all cases of life, not just soccer.

 

"please please play for us, here is a boatload of money to play for our country." what the hell is this? club football? is this Qatar

 

jesus this thread needs to be locked

 

Yes, I do in fact think if we payed fees for national team appearances it would literally make the difference of these players on the fence of which country to pick to play for or make time.  

[ironcub14]

I don't think paying players for caps is likely, but giving players bonuses for qualifying for the knockout rounds or higher stages in various tournaments, isn't that what's usually commonplace? That's probably more likely, and may already happen.

 

But compensating players for caps itself, I don't think that will happen.

[Free kick]

Finally coming to the conclusion that in a world with so much soccer talent and leagues and teams that Canada will never compete internationally without playing hardball, being more protectionist and attempting to do some things unconventionally. The only solution to this IMO is to treat our national team(s) as professional clubs.  

 

There is a lot of talk about setting up a professional domestic league in Canada with quotas requiring a certain percentage of Canadian players.  Sounds good but I'm skeptical it will work especially with MLS, NASL, USL already existing and the fact we are next door the U.S. with it's college system.  This is not even taking into consideration of whether it would be successful in a business sense.  This really only leaves Canada with it's national teams which existed 20 years ago and we know will exist 20 years from now so why not utilize these teams more a professional clubs. 

 

The biggest thing obviously includes paying the players.  Example for senior team: $100,000/yr rate for starters/on the field players.  $50,000/yr rate for bench.  By this I mean if Canada plays 8 games in one year then a on-the-field player would get a $12,500 fee for each game they played in that year...ie $100,000/8 games.  A player on the bench would get half that.  Yes this means each national team would need a couple million dollar player salary budget.

 

The National Teams should be based in a City (Toronto or Vancouver) and Soccer Canada should play hardball and attempt should negotiate with leagues to allow our U20/23 national teams play in a league whether it's NASL or NWSL.  

 

 

Anyway how crazy am I to suggest this?

this was already attempted in Canada.   in the early 1980's in fact.  At that time, the NASL (that only league we have ever had that was comparable to the current MLS) had several teams in Canada.   The CSA and the Montreal Manic had agreed that the club would become the defacto National team.    Hence, the canadian national team players would play for Montreal (then owned by Molson Brewery) and then when the national team played, it would be comprised of Manic players or a core of Manic players.   Many national team players did actaully transfer to the Manic but i dont believe that all of them did.    Montreal folded and the league folded shortly thereafter, so this effort went down the toilet but Canada did make it to WC.  and, it never has since.

 

The thinking here is to build the chemistry and familiarity amongst players at the national team comparable to what you have at the club level.  And, it would be a big trump card for ensuring success at the international level.   this same idea and notion of creating a club atmosphere at the national team is often brought up in europe and in particular the stronger national sides in europe where gaffrs have to select players from a multitude of different clubs which causes a headache as far as team chemistry.    i read somewhere that some world cup winning  sides were shown to have performed better and have won because they selected a larger core from one club (eg.; Bayern Munich or Juventus).  i recall several years ago, when Canada played Estonia in a freindly,  something like of 80 per cent of the Estonian squad came from one club.  

 

so, what your proposing can be done.  and, very little needs to to be officialized and formalized  to achieve this.   obviously, the CSA or any FA cannot run a club nor does it have the resources to pay the salaries.    But having said all that,   i think that there are bigger priorities or issues than chemistry on our national team.   all the chemistry in the world will not help you if you cant reach the hex in Concacaf and lose 8-1 to Honduras in a do or die WCQ match.

[Free kick]

PS.:  the only time that Canada ever qualified for the world cup was 1986.  Maybe that agreement between Montreal and the CSA did pay dividends. 

 

 

 

PPS.:  here is an article that talks about this experiment.

 

http://www.ussoccerplayers.com/manic-depression

 

exerpt from the piece:

 

.........With qualification for the 1986 World Cup looming, US Soccer and the NASL had decided to create a team of American players for the 1983 season. On paper, “Team America” would feature the league’s best American players, moved to an expansion franchise playing a regular NASL schedule in Washington DC. This would give the U.S. Soccer Federation the proving ground to select a national team capable of qualifying for the World Cup. Deciding that they knew a good idea when they heard one, the Canadian Soccer Association decided to do the same thing, converting the Montreal Manic into “Team Canada” for the 1984 season. On February 7, 1983, Manic vice president Jacques Burelle announced that at the end of the 1983 season the Manic would release all of their non-Canadian players and become Team Canada. The team would be run by the Canadian Soccer Federation and sponsored by Molson. A Molson spokesperson stressed that the brewery was doing Canadian soccer a favor by converting the Manic, and to neglect to do so would allow the Americans to become the dominant force in CONCACAF."...................

[madmonte]

^Upon examining the 1986 Canada World Cup squad, I found only one player that actually played in the World Cup for Canada that also was with the Manic.  Gerry Grey played for the Manic for 25 games in 1983 before jumping ship to the New York Cosmos.

 

With that in mind, I don't think the 1986 qualification for the World Cup can be correlated to the Manic.  The timeframe was more coincidental than anything.

[Free kick]

ok.  true. but the league folded shortly so concept never took hold.  None the less,  there are actually valid argument against the concept. namely that we had the comparative advantage  (versu the US) talentwise that we no longer have.   we had better players than the US at that time.  

 

But my reason for responding to this thread is becasue I was kind of pissed off when i saw a valid topic of discussion by a new poster.   and to my dismay, what do i see?   a dozen or so subsequent posts rediculing or ganging up as if this idea originated from Mars.  When in fact, its a concept that is perfectly valid and discussed all over the world.   

 

"Hot housing" talent for national teams or national teams deveopment is not a novelty.  It took root behind the iron curtain (ie.:  remember the Red army teams) but has been employed by tons of sports federations around the world today.  The concept that this new poster originated is not totally dissimilar to what we see with world league volleyball.  our national team has shot up the world ranking to the point that we are close to the super powers in the sport. even though (unlike the euro powers in the sport) we dont have a pro league.   They represent canada and have sponsorship with blackberry.  

 

even in soccer many national teams are comprised of players from one or two clubs domestically.   Look at central american sides.  Look at costa rica!  how many of their national team players play for or have played for Saprissa?   answer:  pretty much all of them.   so what he is suggesting is already happening (un officially). But not in Canada.

[Sport Shaman]

@Free kick   -   Thanks for saying what needed to be said. A new poster comes on the board with an idea and a bunch of curmudgeons do the pile on and essentially call him (or her) a DAN (Dumb Ass Newby). Mind you, some were more respectful than that with the subject matter but jeezus why don't we try to be at least as civil as we are on the Introductions thread.

 

 

@mpg_29  -  Welcome to the V's forum. Good to have you on board. You will have to decide whether this is a place that you want to stay.   

[madmonte]

I agree.  I was trying to keep my responses respectful, free kick and sport shaman, while still putting out a respectful debate against his argument, as I don't necessarily think it would work given the 2015 sports climate.   I also found it distasteful that others were being so condescending to someone that was new to the forum.

 

If I came across as anything but that, I would apologize to you mpg, sir.