Scott Arfield

[hodgkiss]

21 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Turner > Borjan
Steffan > crepeau
Tim Ream > Vitoria
CCV > Miller
Dest > Johnston
Robinson> Adekugbe
Scally > Laryea 
Adams> Hutch
Mckennie > staq (this one is painful to admit)
Musah> Oso
Reyna > Hoilett
Pulisic< Davies  - Davies is the better player but pulisic might be the better winger. 
Aaronson > larin
Sargent < David
Weah= Buchanan tough call 
De la torre > Kone

We basically have david who is clearly better than their strikers. Davies who is better than any of their lb, but is close to pulisic when you compare them as wingers, and buchanan who is near weah. Every other player for player is won by the USA.

Really????

Turner > Borjan
Steffan = crepeau (Steffen sitting on the bench)
Tim Ream = Vitoria (both old)
CCV > Miller (for sure)
Dest < Johnston (no way - dest is sitting on the bench most of the time)
Robinson = Adekugbe (skill wise about the same - Adekugbe needs playing time)
Scally < Laryea (nope)
Adams > Hutch (now because he's old)
Mckennie > staq (Mckennie is overrated and Eusatqio is still underrated)
Musah = Oso
Reyna = Hoilett (only because Hoilett is older, otherwise he's better than Reyna)
Pulisic < Davies  - (Davies is better every day of the week!)
Aaronson = Larin (Aaronson has the pace adavantage but he's a baby)
Sargent < David (there is no comparison)
Weah < Buchanan (Weah barely plays and Tajon is better in all departments) 
De la torre = Kone (Kone is already better and hasn't even played in the Championship yet)

[Sechat23]

25 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Turner > Borjan
Steffan > crepeau
Tim Ream > Vitoria
CCV > Miller
Dest > Johnston
Robinson> Adekugbe
Scally > Laryea 
Adams> Hutch
Mckennie > staq (this one is painful to admit)
Musah> Oso
Reyna > Hoilett
Pulisic< Davies  - Davies is the better player but pulisic might be the better winger. 
Aaronson > larin
Sargent < David
Weah= Buchanan tough call 
De la torre > Kone

We basically have david who is clearly better than their strikers. Davies who is better than any of their lb, but is close to pulisic when you compare them as wingers, and buchanan who is near weah. Every other player for player is won by the USA.

At the end of the day, this is why Luca is having a hard time make his decision and has time. If I was betting on myself, I would try to make it into the US.

[hodgkiss]

If the player pool is so deep, this is exactly why he wouldn't join the US... Doesn't make sense...

[Sechat23]

3 minutes ago, hodgkiss said:

Really????

Turner > Borjan
Steffan = crepeau (Steffen sitting on the bench)
Tim Ream = Vitoria (both old)
CCV > Miller (for sure)
Dest < Johnston (no way - dest is sitting on the bench most of the time)
Robinson = Adekugbe (skill wise about the same - Adekugbe needs playing time)
Scally < Laryea (nope)
Adams > Hutch (now because he's old)
Mckennie > staq (Mckennie is overrated and Eusatqio is still underrated)
Musah = Oso
Reyna = Hoilett (only because Hoilett is older, otherwise he's better than Reyna)
Pulisic < Davies  - (Davies is better every day of the week!)
Aaronson = Larin (Aaronson has the pace adavantage but he's a baby)
Sargent < David (there is no comparison)
Weah < Buchanan (Weah barely plays and Tajon is better in all departments) 
De la torre = Kone (Kone is already better and hasn't even played in the Championship yet)

This is mind blowing

[Obinna]

14 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Turner > Borjan
Steffan > crepeau
Tim Ream > Vitoria
CCV > Miller
Dest > Johnston
Robinson> Adekugbe
Scally > Laryea 
Adams> Hutch
Mckennie > staq (this one is painful to admit)
Musah> Oso
Reyna > Hoilett
Pulisic< Davies  - Davies is the better player but pulisic might be the better winger. 
Aaronson > larin
Sargent < David
Weah= Buchanan tough call 
De la torre > Kone

We basically have david who is clearly better than their strikers. Davies who is better than any of their lb, but is close to pulisic when you compare them as wingers, and buchanan who is near weah. Every other player for player is won by the USA.

Agree with the overall point you are demonstrating, but you can do this in a few ways. For example:

Pulisic < Davies

Reyna < David

Weah < Buchanan (fair to few this as equal at the moment, but let's factor in that Tajon's trajectory is moving quicker)

Yedlin < Johnston

Adams = Eustaquio (fair to view Adams as superior if we factor in that he's younger, but at the moment they are equal)

Musah > Kone (cannot say otherwise right now, but I can see a world where that evens-out over time)

Larin = Pefok 

........... here is where I can no longer make arguments for our guys

Dest < Laryea

Sargent < Ugbo

Mckennie < Oso/Kaye/Hutch/etc.

Aaronson < Millar (or any other central midfielder we have)

Robinson < Adekugbe

CCV < Miller or Kennedy

Richards < Waterman

Turner < Crepeau

and so on, and so forth...

................the one thing I will say though is that for some of these, the American player is marginally better in the present, but are younger and therefore when projecting to the future you must expect the gap to widen. This is true of Robinson vs. Adekugbe....more true of Sargent vs Ugbo.....and even more true of Dest vs Laryea. In the present, each of these Canadians can go toe-to-toe in any one-off game...but as time goes on those Americans will hit their peak, whereas our guys will come out of their prime. This is why it's important for us to find more young players like Kone and start integrating them. 

[Sechat23]

4 minutes ago, hodgkiss said:

If the player pool is so deep, this is exactly why he wouldn't join the US... Doesn't make sense...

If you look at the RW and LW there's almost no deep

[Sechat23]

2 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Agree with the overall point you are demonstrating, but you can do this in a few ways. For example:

Pulisic < Davies

Reyna < David

Weah < Buchanan (fair to few this as equal at the moment, but let's factor in that Tajon's trajectory is moving quicker)

Yedlin < Johnston

Adams = Eustaquio (fair to view Adams as superior if we factor in that he's younger, but at the moment they are equal)

Musah > Kone (cannot say otherwise right now, but I can see a world where that evens-out over time)

Larin = Pefok 

........... here is where I can no longer make arguments for our guys

Dest < Laryea

Sargent < Ugbo

Mckennie < Oso/Kaye/Hutch/etc.

Aaronson < Millar (or any other central midfielder we have)

Robinson < Adekugbe

CCV < Miller or Kennedy

Richards < Waterman

Turner < Crepeau

and so on, and so forth...

................the one thing I will say though is that for some of these, the American player is marginally better in the present, but are younger and therefore when projecting to the future you must expect the gap to widen. This is true of Robinson vs. Adekugbe....more true of Sargent vs Ugbo.....and even more true of Dest vs Laryea. In the present, each of these Canadians can go toe-to-toe in any one-off game...but as time goes on those Americans will hit their peak, whereas our guys will come out of their prime. This is why it's important for us to find more young players like Kone and start integrating them. 

You can't do that. You have to compare each position, not player is better than this player.

[Obinna]

6 minutes ago, Sechat23 said:

This is mind blowing

Some of it is out to lunch and totally biased, such as Larin and Aaronson being equal on the basis that Aaronson comes off as a spoiled trust-fund baby half the time. That may be true, but there's no world where Aaronson isn't a better player than Larin - but also this is not even a proper comparison to make, one being a winger/attacking mid, the other a number 9 or inside power forward type. Their profiles couldn't be more different. 

That said, it's not all crazy.

Adekugbe and Robinson are pretty close to being equal in the present moment, for example. Robinson is two years younger and is playing in a better league for a better club, but if you just look at their individual qualities and performances internationally, there isn't much of a gulf there (if any).

Another fair one by @hodgkiss is Laryea vs Scally. Yes, Scally plays with Monchengladbach and does so fairly regularly, while Laryea is clearly not favored at a struggling Nottingham Forest, but internationally Scally hasn't done anything and Laryea has been excellent, especially in the World Cup. One could argue Greg should play Scally more - and I would agree with that - but it's getting into the world of "what ifs" a little too much for my liking.  

[Obinna]

5 minutes ago, Sechat23 said:

You can't do that. You have to compare each position, not player is better than this player.

I would argue those positional comparisons are just as valid as what @Bigandy did, which was my point - that you can match players up in a variety of ways to spin whatever narrative you want. Ultimately you cannot say Canada is better than the USA player-for-player, but you can lay things out to make the gap as narrow or wide as you want, depending on what narrative you want to spin. 

To defend my match ups:

Davies and Pulisic are wide players (Pulisic more a winger - Davies more a wingback)

David and Reyna are second forwards (David more a 9 - Reyna more a midfielder)

Buchanan and Weah are both wingers 

Johnston and Yedlin both right backs

Larin and Pefok both forwards

Adams and Eustaquio both holding midfielders

Musah and Kone both midfielders

Dest and Laryea both fullbacks (or wingbacks)

Sargent and Ugbo both strikers

etc.

.......where is the positional inconsistency you see here?

 

[Bison44]

Boy I thought maybe there would be some good Arfield news in here.  Instead hand wringing over the US team..ugghhh.  Now even I am hating the Arfield thread.  But we should have a chance to settle some of this at the gold cup eh? Unless it is on american home turf and the draw is rigged so we are have to beat mexico to get to the USA.  Hmmm, that prob wont happen will it???  

[RS]

Just now, Bison44 said:

Boy I thought maybe there would be some good Arfield news in here.  Instead hand wringing over the US team..ugghhh.

Beat me to it.

[Obinna]

Just now, RS said:

Beat me to it.

until you and Bison commented I had lost track what thread I was posting in lol

For sure this should be taken to the USA watch thread.

[Bison44]

Oh its not the worst derailing of a thread we have seen.  I'll just go to the "Players you expect to see in CPL" page for my Arfield news.  

[hodgkiss]

maybe it's time to ban some posters that are clearly not Canadian supporters!

[Approve My Account Pls]

Everytime I see this thread get hot I just think "what bs is it this time"

[RS]

19 minutes ago, hodgkiss said:

maybe it's time to ban some posters that are clearly not Canadian supporters!

He's not trolling so I don't see the harm of him posting in here.

[Bigandy]

2 hours ago, hodgkiss said:

Really????

Turner > Borjan
Steffan = crepeau (Steffen sitting on the bench)
Tim Ream = Vitoria (both old)
CCV > Miller (for sure)
Dest < Johnston (no way - dest is sitting on the bench most of the time)
Robinson = Adekugbe (skill wise about the same - Adekugbe needs playing time)
Scally < Laryea (nope)
Adams > Hutch (now because he's old)
Mckennie > staq (Mckennie is overrated and Eusatqio is still underrated)
Musah = Oso
Reyna = Hoilett (only because Hoilett is older, otherwise he's better than Reyna)
Pulisic < Davies  - (Davies is better every day of the week!)
Aaronson = Larin (Aaronson has the pace adavantage but he's a baby)
Sargent < David (there is no comparison)
Weah < Buchanan (Weah barely plays and Tajon is better in all departments) 
De la torre = Kone (Kone is already better and hasn't even played in the Championship yet)

This is absolute nonsense. your bias is out of control. 

 

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

I would argue those positional comparisons are just as valid as what @Bigandy did, which was my point - that you can match players up in a variety of ways to spin whatever narrative you want. Ultimately you cannot say Canada is better than the USA player-for-player, but you can lay things out to make the gap as narrow or wide as you want, depending on what narrative you want to spin. 

To defend my match ups:

Davies and Pulisic are wide players (Pulisic more a winger - Davies more a wingback)

David and Reyna are second forwards (David more a 9 - Reyna more a midfielder)

Buchanan and Weah are both wingers 

Johnston and Yedlin both right backs

Larin and Pefok both forwards

Adams and Eustaquio both holding midfielders

Musah and Kone both midfielders

Dest and Laryea both fullbacks (or wingbacks)

Sargent and Ugbo both strikers

etc.

.......where is the positional inconsistency you see here?

 

Positionally, you are not crazy different than me. However, you have chosen some weak usa players vs strong canadian ones. 

Johnston is our best RB and should be compared to Dest not yedlin.  Dest wins

Adams is starting in the prem. I love staq but adams is probably better. BUT you should compare mckennie who is arguably the most important player for the USA and certainly better than staq. mckennie and staq play more box to box so is a better comparison positionally. 

Pefok (who is better than larin) didnt even make the world cup squad. It seems bias to compare our best "True 9" with a guy who didnt go to the WC. 

I dont think its about spinning a narative or the inability to determine which squad is better. If we compare man to man, our 1,2,3 in each position in the depth chart, We win on around 3 positions, maybe. David, Davies, Buchanan. Maybe laryea is better than yedlin/Scally for #2 RB but I dont think its a clear winner.

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by Bigandy

[Floortom]

It's easier to just compare top 25 talent than doing a position by position analysis. If you do that, the vast majority of the list will be Americans with some Canadian representation here and there. Can we beat them on a given day? Of course - we have already proven that and they aren't exactly Brazil. But they have the better results, better rankings (FIFA or ELO) and better talent by an objective measure (transfermarket, players in top leagues,etc.) I don't think one qualifying campaign outweighs all of that

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, Sechat23 said:

You can't do that. You have to compare each position, not player is better than this player.

You should explain the rules before you post.

Also, a legend for those little symbols ('.,.!#ç&#) would be helpful.

[narduch]

The game is not played on paper. We were better than the USA in WCQ and that is the best judge we have.

We are better then them.

A lot of their players that people laud are highly over-rated and will be in MLS in 2 years once hey get found out.

[Obinna]

56 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I would say that my match ups are more accurate. Reyna is a midfielder and David plays as both a lone and secondary striker. Not a great comparison, but even if we say that is accurate, then you are choosing weak usa players vs strong canadian ones. 

Johnston is our best RB and should be compared to Dest not yedlin.  Dest wins

Adams is starting in the prem. I love staq but adams is probably better. BUT you left mckennie off your list who is arguably the most important player for the USA

Pefok (who is better than larin) didnt even make the world cup squad. It seems bias to compare our best "True 9" with a guy who didnt go to the WC. 

 

Indeed, I chose the match ups that allowed Canada to have the most favorable comparisons - but that was intentional to demonstrate the folly with such things. You can always draw comparisons in a way that exaggerates the gap in quality, making it seem wider, or you can do the opposite (as I have done).

Either way, USA is better than Canada on paper, no question. How big or small the gap truly is can always be debated, however.

And to point out some flaws in your own comparisons, Aaronson and Larin? That's far more unrealistic than David and Reyna, who at least have similar profiles (close control, very intelligent, eye for a pass, etc.).

Larin and Aaronson are vastly different, no? One is tall, the other is short. One is agile, the other is not. One plays midfield, one plays forward. One can truly play wide, the other drifts inside from wide. One is a playmaker, the other a goal scorer. One plays in the hole, the other plays as a target. I don't need to say who is who because you know.

In my view, Jonathan David is kind of like Larin, sure, but Aaronson (and Reyna) are NOT like Larin whatsoever. In essence, Aaronson-Reyna-David are more similar to each other than any of them are to Larin....Hence why I would say my Reyna comparison to David is better than your Aaronson comparison is to Larin. 

Additionally, David is our 2nd best player and Reyna is the 2nd best American player (arguably). To your credit I would say that Aaronson is as important to USA as Larin is to Canada. The comparison holds more weight on those grounds than if we truly judged based on position (or I should say the nature of the player).

And this is just all my own opinion and interpretation, please don't take any of it as gospel. 

Edited January 3, 2023 by Obinna

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

The game is not played on paper. We were better than the USA in WCQ and that is the best judge we have.

We are better then them.

A lot of their players that people laud are highly over-rated and will be in MLS in 2 years once hey get found out.

I will try not to steer the thread off course after this, but one final point on what you are saying:

I think we have a psychological edge over the USA. Maybe less so after the World Cup, but nonetheless I think it's there. We beat them at home and drew them on the road. The last time they beat us it was C+ version of USMNT versus B+ version of Canada. The "A" players on the USA have to go back to Orlando for memory of a win against us, and even back then both squads were kind of different - especially on the American side. 

Edited January 3, 2023 by Obinna

[Bigandy]

4 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Indeed, I chose the match ups that allowed Canada to have the most favorable comparisons - but that was intentional to demonstrate the folly with such things. You can always draw comparisons in a way that exaggerates the gap in quality, making it seem wider, or you can do the opposite (as I have done).

Either way, USA is better than Canada on paper, no question. How big or small the gap truly is can always be debated, however.

And to point out some flaws in your own comparisons, Aaronson and Larin? That's far more unrealistic than David and Reyna, who at least have similar profiles (close control, very intelligent, eye for a pass, etc.). Larin and Aaronson are vastly different, no? One is tall, the other is short. One is agile, the other is not. One plays midfield, one plays forward. One is can truly play wide, the other drifts inside from wide. One is a playmaker, the other a goal scorer. I don't need to say who is who because you know.

In my view, Jonathan David is more like Larin than Reyna and Aaronson - since neither really plays forward - but in saying that it is clear to me that David-Reyna-Aaronson are all more similar to each other than any of them are to Larin - Hence why I would say my Reyna comparison to David is better than your Aaronson comparison is to Larin. 

Additionally, David is our 2nd best player and Reyna is the 2nd best American player (arguably). To your credit however, I would say that Aaronson is as important to USA as Larin is to Canada. The comparison holds more weight on those grounds than positionally speaking.

And this is just all my own opinion and interpretation, please don't take any of it as gospel. 

I see your point in the folly of comparisons. However, I think you can minimize the folly by doing a positional depth chart. Obviously with different formations/player pools, you wouldnt have the same depth in each position in a WC squad of 26 players. However, i think there are ways to reduce the folly to get closer to an accurate prediction. Especially when the quality between 2 players is so substantial. If we do this comparison between brazil and england, then the arguments become alot harder as its such fine margins as to who is better.

Great points on my larin to Aaronson comparison. Its not a great comparison other than I was trying to boost canada by picking Larin, rather than picking guys who are another tier below (millar/spoony/oso etc). Pefok to Larin is more accurate and aaronson to millar/spoony? may be better. 

[Obinna]

2 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I see your point in the folly of comparisons. However, I think you can minimize the folly by doing a positional depth chart. Obviously with different formations/player pools, you wouldnt have the same depth in each position in a WC squad of 26 players. However, i think there are ways to reduce the folly to get closer to an accurate prediction. Especially when the quality between 2 players is so substantial. If we do this comparison between brazil and england, then the arguments become alot harder as its such fine margins as to who is better.

Great points on my larin to Aaronson comparison. Its not a great comparison other than I was trying to boost canada by picking Larin, rather than picking guys who are another tier below (millar/spoony/oso etc). Pefok to Larin is more accurate and aaronson to millar/spoony? may be better. 

Aaronson to Millar is the one I went with. I would say it fits better since both are agile and fast with good ball control, and both like going at defenders on the dribble. Millar has more ability to play forward though (even though he doesn't anymore), and Aaronson has more ability to play centrally. They are both roughly the same age, whereas Spoony is almost a decade older and he's not the same kind of wide player as Millar or Aaronson when he does play out there. Very much a pass-and-move player.

Good points on the depth chart stuff. One thing it would reveal is how much more superior the USA depth is. The flipside is that you cannot play all that depth at once. At the end of the day it's 11 vs 11. This is where our relative lack of depth doesn't really hurt us and having the best player in the confederation really boosts us - even in psychological terms.  

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 hours ago, narduch said:

The game is not played on paper. We were better than the USA in WCQ and that is the best judge we have.

We are better then them.

A lot of their players that people laud are highly over-rated and will be in MLS in 2 years once hey get found out.

I am not sure, but there are a few match-ups I find odd. 

Musah is a very good player, and so young, we have nothing like him.

I find it funny when folks say Dest is worse than we have. He was not stellar at the World Cup, but let one of our guys get his club pedigree, lose to Netherlands in a knockout round, then we can have a conversation.