Jonathan Osorio

[eramosat]

it's simply not working.

P.S.  Always takes me a while to figure it out, always the same mistakes I make...as it should.  Any Ignore should always be carefully considered.

Edited 3 hours ago by eramosat

[costarg]

I'm nowhere near Anthony7 on the Osorio spectrum, but I've also raised my concerns and issues with Osorio since the injury.  I seem to be a little different to most on here in the sense that I've been pretty vocal about moving on from hero's and class acts once their play starts to decline.

Also, I've always liked him and can't understand how someone can't at least respect what he's done.  He was never our best or most important player, yet he had earned a starting spot and delivered some special moments even with his limitations.  Saying he's regressing is one thing, saying he's terrible and always was is another.  

While he's good for a goal and an assist here an there along with a solid passing rate.  My concern is his one-way game, he'll always show up for an offensive play, but we've seen him give up too easy on the defensive plays.  That's one thing that's always irked me with some players, even the great ones.  Lately I feel he just disappears from games for really large periods of time or he's just not where he should be, unless the play is in the box.  Last night, once again, the lowest touches of all TFC players in the middle, some with substantially less minutes than him.  

JO - 90min / 43 touches
LI - 59 / 56
AC - 59 / 48
ML - 90 / 59
RL - 90 / 54

This is the main reason I'm over him in a top 5 mid for CANMNT perspective.  Others have shown more drive, intensity as well as strong two-way games.  Unfortunately we don't have the luxury to play a player with that profile.  It's just a matter of time now, I'm not even sure he's in the discussion in 12 months.  

Edited Monday at 01:21 AM by costarg

[Bigandy]

7 minutes ago, costarg said:

I'm nowhere near Anthony7 on the Osorio spectrum, but I've also raised my concerns and issues with Osorio since the injury.  I seem to be a little different to most on here in the sense that I've been pretty vocal about moving on from hero's and class acts once their play starts to decline.

Also, I've always liked him and can't understand how someone can't at least respect what he's done.  He was never our best or most important player, yet he had earned a starting spot and delivered some special moments even with his limitations.  Saying he's regressing is one thing, saying he's terrible and always was is another.  

While he's good for a goal and an assist here an there along with a solid passing rate.  My concern is his one-way game, he'll always show up for an offensive play, but we've seen him give up too easy on the defensive plays.  That's one thing that's always irked me with some players, even the great ones.  Lately I feel he just disappears from games for really large periods of time or he's just not where he should be, unless the play is in the box.  Last night, once again, the lowest touches of all TFC players in the middle, some with substantially less minutes than him.  

JO - 90min / 43 touches
LI - 59 / 56
AC - 59 / 48
ML - 90 / 59
RL - 90 / 54

This is the main reason I'm over him in a top 5 mid for CANMNT perspective.  Others have shown more drive, intensity as well as strong two-way games.  Unfortunately we don't have the luxury to play a player with that profile.  It's just a matter of time now, I'm not even sure he's in the discussion in 12 months.  

I don’t think he starts for us anymore but it’s weird to say he always shows up for offense but never defence and then show his limited touches. 
 

he does a lot of intangibles like Larin. Now I’m not saying that’s enough to start but when you see him being invisible, he’s creating space, plugging gaps etc.  the reason he scores goals as a late runner is because he is also invisible to the defenders. He’s not all action like staq but that doesn’t mean he’s not contributing. 

[Obinna]

9 hours ago, anthony7 said:

Right now he’s taking minutes from Saliba & Sigur. For the longest time, he was taking minutes from Choinere & to an extent Ahmed. It’s time for him to kick rocks now. At this point, it’s just pure favouritism for his selection.

A lot to chew on with this and the other posts and don't have time to respond to all the points being made in the discussion but I will say this:

you agree that Osorio is only behind Kone, Eustaquio, Choiniere, Saliba and Sigur and ahead of Kaye, Piette, Paton, Fraser, plus everyone else. In other words, he is 6th in the depth chart.

Can we agree the 6th midfielder, whether that is Oso or someone else, is not irrelevant to the team?

This window for example we picked 5 midfielders and 5-6 CMs seems like the maximum we are going to pick for any given selection.

You may not think much of Osorio but if you are conceeding that he is 6th in the depth chart, that is too close to the team to claim he is irrelevant, no? Furthermore, how can you claim he is keeping anyone out of the team if the players in front of him (Saliba and Sigur) are in the team already?

Eventually Saliba/Sigur will eat up his minutes but it's going to happen in due course. Marsch is squeezing value from Oso which gives him the luxury to integrate Saliba and Sigur at the appropriate pace. I trust Marsch given what I have seen thus far.

Edited Monday at 05:25 AM by Obinna

[Sal333]

7 hours ago, Obinna said:

A lot to chew on with this and the other posts and don't have time to respond to all the points being made in the discussion but I will say this:

you agree that Osorio is only behind Kone, Eustaquio, Choiniere, Saliba and Sigur and ahead of Kaye, Piette, Paton, Fraser, plus everyone else. In other words, he is 6th in the depth chart.

Can we agree the 6th midfielder, whether that is Oso or someone else, is not irrelevant to the team?

This window for example we picked 5 midfielders and 5-6 CMs seems like the maximum we are going to pick for any given selection.

You may not think much of Osorio but if you are conceeding that he is 6th in the depth chart, that is too close to the team to claim he is irrelevant, no? Furthermore, how can you claim he is keeping anyone out of the team if the players in front of him (Saliba and Sigur) are in the team already?

Eventually Saliba/Sigur will eat up his minutes but it's going to happen in due course. Marsch is squeezing value from Oso which gives him the luxury to integrate Saliba and Sigur at the appropriate pace. I trust Marsch given what I have seen thus far.

The odd part of Anthony's argument is that Oso is keeping the last three players from getting playing time. Kone wasn't there . Choiniere played in both games.  Considering both Saliba and Sigur are only 20 years old and didn't have any previous experience with Marsch's system I think it was prudent on his part to break in the rookies slowly.

And another thing. It's 2024. Marsch is aiming for 2026 primarily. My bet is that Oso will not be on the WC team unless there are injuries or he decides to go with 6 midfielders.

[Unnamed Trialist]

It's sad that the lowest common denominator is the basis for talking points about a player.

He's ageing, and then his club has been suffering for a few years. And not getting too much better. So that is not going to help the individual show his upside. For Canada he usually plays a nice role, there are moments like the goal in Azteca that are truly amazing, he also has some skills that are enviable, he has some smooth movements with the ball, and can slip between lines, and is a thinking man's player, and that stuff can still really help the national team. He is also a leader, a veteran, and has captain qualities.

Please accept that if I've been hard on him here, it is mostly because of a lot of BS that was said about him (he never had any serious offer from Europe despite that lie being repeated naively, he just leveraged it for a better TFC contract), and also because of the Caps-TFC rivalry (to be fair, last time I saw him, in the Voyageurs Cup final in 2022, Tiebert was in fact quite a bit better than him and he flopped, but of course he's a far better player than Tiebert).

Like many here, I think his injury, and its longer-term effects, should be taken into account. We were surprised at that moment he was taking so long to get back. Now, there is a question of how hard he can train or work to improve himself, or at least take that step into the final years of his career. There are plenty of mids out there who have prolonged their careers by working very hard into their mid-30s, Modric being the most exemplary, there's Busquets in an even more physical spot, Kroos could have kept playing. I think if Osorio wanted to work like a demon to get even sharper physically he could do the same, unless there is some impediment. 

I personally believe he will be on our 2026 squad, depending on squad sizes, because TFC is likely to get better over the next 2 seasons and that will benefit him in Marsch's view.

 

[narduch]

On the bench for MLS Team of the Week

[costarg]

11 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

It's sad that the lowest common denominator is the basis for talking points about a player.

He's ageing, and then his club has been suffering for a few years. And not getting too much better. So that is not going to help the individual show his upside. For Canada he usually plays a nice role, there are moments like the goal in Azteca that are truly amazing, he also has some skills that are enviable, he has some smooth movements with the ball, and can slip between lines, and is a thinking man's player, and that stuff can still really help the national team. He is also a leader, a veteran, and has captain qualities.

Please accept that if I've been hard on him here, it is mostly because of a lot of BS that was said about him (he never had any serious offer from Europe despite that lie being repeated naively, he just leveraged it for a better TFC contract), and also because of the Caps-TFC rivalry (to be fair, last time I saw him, in the Voyageurs Cup final in 2022, Tiebert was in fact quite a bit better than him and he flopped, but of course he's a far better player than Tiebert).

Like many here, I think his injury, and its longer-term effects, should be taken into account. We were surprised at that moment he was taking so long to get back. Now, there is a question of how hard he can train or work to improve himself, or at least take that step into the final years of his career. There are plenty of mids out there who have prolonged their careers by working very hard into their mid-30s, Modric being the most exemplary, there's Busquets in an even more physical spot, Kroos could have kept playing. I think if Osorio wanted to work like a demon to get even sharper physically he could do the same, unless there is some impediment. 

I personally believe he will be on our 2026 squad, depending on squad sizes, because TFC is likely to get better over the next 2 seasons and that will benefit him in Marsch's view.

 

Well written.  Agree with it all, except for Osorio being there in 2026.  Real longshot with the young guys coming up, I don't see how he hangs on for 2 more years.  I am rooting for him though, just seems like such a down to earth nice guy.  Until Anthony comes out with the real dirt.

Edited Tuesday at 01:55 AM by costarg

[costarg]

On 9/15/2024 at 9:25 PM, Bigandy said:

it’s weird to say he always shows up for offense but never defence and then show his limited touches. 

Just cause he's in or near the box, doesn't mean he's getting to every ball.  Doesn't even mean his team mates are looking for him.  I mean he seems to run more one way than the other.  I hate to write it, but seems to me like he trots defensively, yet runs offensively.  The least touches of midfield players is a common theme now, and has been for a while.

 

On 9/15/2024 at 9:25 PM, Bigandy said:

He’s not all action like staq but that doesn’t mean he’s not contributing. 

Well the stats and eye test show otherwise.  He's doing stuff, just not as much as the others.

[Obinna]

On 9/16/2024 at 8:04 PM, costarg said:

Just cause he's in or near the box, doesn't mean he's getting to every ball.  Doesn't even mean his team mates are looking for him.  I mean he seems to run more one way than the other.  I hate to write it, but seems to me like he trots defensively, yet runs offensively.  The least touches of midfield players is a common theme now, and has been for a while.

 

Well the stats and eye test show otherwise.  He's doing stuff, just not as much as the others.

I simply don't believe this to be a valid criticism....

One can pick any instance of a player trotting defensively and offensively.

One can pick any instance of a player running defensively and offensively.

All of it happens during the course of a game. And you are going to get a different balance of sprinting and jogging depending on the player's role and profile. For me, this is the most I have noticed Osorio sprinting defensively, specifically pressing and closing down defenders high up the field when we don't have the ball. That's the role of the high players in Marsch's defensive shape.

Osorio is not doing anything special, just what he is instructed to do, but the point is that he does run defensively, it's not something which can be disputed. 

Are you talking about sprints backward towards our own goal? If so let's get specific so we are talking apples-to-apples.

 

[costarg]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

I simply don't believe this to be a valid criticism....

One can pick any instance of a player trotting defensively and offensively.

One can pick any instance of a player running defensively and offensively.

All of it happens during the course of a game. And you are going to get a different balance of sprinting and jogging depending on the player's role and profile. For me, this is the most I have noticed Osorio sprinting defensively, specifically pressing and closing down defenders high up the field when we don't have the ball. That's the role of the high players in Marsch's defensive shape.

Osorio is not doing anything special, just what he is instructed to do, but the point is that he does run defensively, it's not something which can be disputed. 

Are you talking about sprints backward towards our own goal? If so let's get specific so we are talking apples-to-apples.

Look, I really respect your opinion and of course Osorio.  But I just don't agree with you on this one.

He was not keeping up with the press and defensive duties vs Mexico, not even close.  He was struggling to keep formation, I'm not the only one that has mentioned this.  You can go back to the game thread.  He was looking ok while playing higher up, once he dropped back to replace Choiniere it  because really apparent.

We've seen the clips of him being blown past while the opposing team is attacking and he's the closest to the player and ball and not covering or even going for it.   The first time this was blatantly obvious was in Nations League like 2 years ago, I felt it was out of character for him, but it could not be ignored.  While he has gotten better since that particular window, he's still having a hard time keeping up

I guess we'll just have to see what happens from here, huh?  Not a betting man, but I feel he's got limited caps left.

[Obinna]

6 minutes ago, costarg said:

I guess we'll just have to see what happens from here, huh?  Not a betting man, but I feel he's got limited caps left.

I agree with this.

I think he may cap out in the high 80s low 90s, but let's see. 

6 minutes ago, costarg said:

Look, I really respect your opinion and of course Osorio.  But I just don't agree with you on this one.

I respect your opinion as well, so if I can find time I will have to re-watch and try to see what you are describing, but now I am thinking your complaint is not that he doesn't run, but that he lacks aggression? Is that a better description of your criticism?

From what I can recall, Osorio was closing down space while up top with Larin in a defensive shape, but he doesn't have the pace of a Shaffleburg, Millar, or David. Maybe by comparison it looks like he is jogging or trotting around up there? 

Cheers!

[GasPed]

I'm definitely no Osorio fan, but I would never fault his effort or his football IQ.  He has always had an eye for the game, and he has always given his all out there.  He is also technically very good - his touches and passes are on point, if he just has a bit of space.

But it's the latter point that's the issue - i.e. his athleticism.  He has never been blessed with great size, strength, pace or quickness.  His "wingspan" is small - he's not able to muscle out others to win a ball, nor does he have the long legs to get a touch on ball that's slightly out of reach, or the quickness to get to it.  He loses too many duels and contested balls, and so overall, he's not a great presser.  He's willing to work, but usually there's just not a lot to show for it.

Against physical teams who are not quick, he can do ok by drawing fouls, but he will struggle in the duels.  Against physical teams who are quick, he's overmatched.  Against technical teams is where he does better - a little time and space gives him the opportunity to gain possession and distribute (his forte).

You could say he's a bit like Staq, but Staq is actually just a bit quicker and stronger than Oso, and that little bit makes a huge difference in the midfield.  Also, we would never play Staq as a 10 at the pointy end of a press.  Anyhow, my 2c (before the "passenger Oso" talk gets revived 😉). 

 

[Obinna]

11 minutes ago, GasPed said:

I'm definitely no Osorio fan, but I would never fault his effort or his football IQ.  He has always had an eye for the game, and he has always given his all out there.  He is also technically very good - his touches and passes are on point, if he just has a bit of space.

But it's the latter point that's the issue - i.e. his athleticism.  He has never been blessed with great size, strength, pace or quickness.  His "wingspan" is small - he's not able to muscle out others to win a ball, nor does he have the long legs to get a touch on ball that's slightly out of reach, or the quickness to get to it.  He loses too many duels and contested balls, and so overall, he's not a great presser.  He's willing to work, but usually there's just not a lot to show for it.

Against physical teams who are not quick, he can do ok by drawing fouls, but he will struggle in the duels.  Against physical teams who are quick, he's overmatched.  Against technical teams is where he does better - a little time and space gives him the opportunity to gain possession and distribute (his forte).

You could say he's a bit like Staq, but Staq is actually just a bit quicker and stronger than Oso, and that little bit makes a huge difference in the midfield.  Also, we would never play Staq as a 10 at the pointy end of a press.  Anyhow, my 2c (before the "passenger Oso" talk gets revived 😉). 

 

I think you've highlighted the disconnect between myself and @costarg on the topic of Osorio and his defensive work. 

For me I acknowledge all of his athletic deficiencies and so I appreciate watching him put in the pressing work upfront under Marsch. This is very different than me saying he's a great presser. Moreover, in that position you are not trying to win the ball necessarily (though it's great if you do), you are just trying to close down the opponent, and he's doing as instructed. He's not doing this at an elite level, but that's okay with me because that's not his game. The fact he's up closing players down at all, given who he is and where he's at in his career, gets a tip of the cap from me.

Again, maybe my memory is selective, hopefully I can watch back and see if he's sprinting in the press or not. 

Edited Wednesday at 06:39 PM by Obinna

[ahmedou]

On 9/14/2024 at 9:24 AM, ahmedou said:

Voyageurs can you tell me please if this is a authentic Umbro Canada Soccer jersey. If it's the same design. If it's the same flocks. It's from which year (2015?). And if Osorio played a game with this #21 Umbro Canada Soccer jersey.

If your answer is yes I'll order this Osorio's Umbro Canada Soccer jersey!

Voyageurs, I appreciated that y'all took your time to answer about this question. I took notes of all your advices.

As Osorio is one my favorite Canadian soccer player. So I don't have the choice to collect the Osorio's Canada Soccer's jersey. I can't collect Osorio's TFC jersey because of the IMFC rivalry.

I liked Osorio's 2015-2021 run tho. So the Umbro Canada Soccer jersey (I can change the #21 to #13 or #10) or Nike Canada Soccer jersey will be one my options. 

[Kingston]

20 minutes ago, ahmedou said:

As Osorio is one my favorite Canadian soccer player. So I don't have the choice to collect the Osorio's Canada Soccer's jersey. I can't collect Osorio's TFC jersey because of the IMFC rivalry.

An even better approach would be to dump the blue team and start cheering red for both club and country.

[costarg]

Just a few more stats and background to my point about him not being involved enough.  Screen shot taken right at the substitution.  It's not a coincidence, again with the fewest touches of the midfield.

[anthony7]

3 hours ago, costarg said:

Just a few more stats and background to my point about him not being involved enough.  Screen shot taken right at the substitution.  It's not a coincidence, again with the fewest touches of the midfield.

I would even put Jacen Russel Rowe ahead of this ghost in the #10 position.  Jacen has all the tools to succeed in that position. Very intelligent player.

[dyslexic nam]

It really defeats the purpose of blocking a specific poster when everyone keeps quoting him and the whole player thread is derailed by a constant and ongoing discussion about said poster…

[narduch]

10 hours ago, costarg said:

Just a few more stats and background to my point about him not being involved enough.  Screen shot taken right at the substitution.  It's not a coincidence, again with the fewest touches of the midfield.

These stats are weird. The defenders made zero tackles?

[Kadenge]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

These stats are weird. The defenders made zero tackles?

Well, they are TFC defenders 🙂

[Obinna]

14 hours ago, costarg said:

Just a few more stats and background to my point about him not being involved enough.  Screen shot taken right at the substitution.  It's not a coincidence, again with the fewest touches of the midfield.

Thanks for sharing. Would you mind posting these stats regularly in this thread? Nice to have some actual metrics to back up our talking points.

One thing I notice is Bernadeschi having numbers not much different than Osorio, same number of passes and just 4 extra touches and 1 cross, yet nobody would argue he is not involved enough right?

Keep in mind I never watched last night's game, just the highlights. 

Anyway, looking forward to tracking these stats every match day to see how they vary. 

[blueseeka]

8 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

It really defeats the purpose of blocking a specific poster when everyone keeps quoting him and the whole player thread is derailed by a constant and ongoing discussion about said poster…

I think we have done good lately.  Let's keep it going. He hasn't been quoted in like 40 posts. That has to be a record in this thread

He can't help himself when he sees the Osorio thread go to the top. Gotta come back to quote others, to trying to get involved again

[shermanator]

11 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

It really defeats the purpose of blocking a specific poster when everyone keeps quoting him and the whole player thread is derailed by a constant and ongoing discussion about said poster…

It's almost like we've had a similar conversation about another poster for over a decade...