Next coach ?

[Grizzly]

Just read through this thread quickly now but Grizzly's dismissal of Marc Dos Santos might be a little too quick. My feeling is that we need a Head Coach who can work with talented young players for at least a couple of years. Dos Santos may not be ready for the Senior team but somehow I find it odd that we dismiss a Canadian-born Coach that has been given the responsibility of working with young talent identified by Manchester United and Desportivo Brasil. The contacts that Dos Santos will have in Brazil and globally (especially now) would be a huge benefit to youth development in Canada if he were selected to lead, at very least, our junior team.

Desportivo Brasil is not your typical small club. They have a modern training centre in Porto Feliz, SP that is as good as any of the big clubs. Desportivo Brasil also has a partnership with Manchester United and trains young Brazilian players already acquired on ManU's behalf at Porto Feliz. It should be also noted that at one time, the club's Technical Director was Carlos Alberto Perreira.

Marc Dos Santos, as Desportivo Brasil's U20 coach will be in charge of their team (birth year 1994 and younger) in the Copa Sao Paulo de Futebol Junior tournament (January). Desportivo Brasil's Copa Sao Paulo team could be better than their Senior team because the top players after the Copa Sao Paulo tend to move onto big clubs rather than move to the Senior team. While Desportivo Brasil's Senior team only plays in the State's 4th level, its youth teams are competitive with the best in Brazil. In last years prestigious Copa Sao Paulo de Futebol Junior, Desportivo Brazil eliminated both Santos and Athletico Mineiro. In July 2012, Desportivo Brasil U-17 won the Milk Cup over Newcastle United winning 3-0 and was one of eight teams to qualify and compete in Aegon Future Cup in Amsterdam that included teams from Manchester United, Bayern Munich, Barcelona, Milan, Besiktas, and Ajax (Winner).

Maybe its too soon for Dos Santos for the MNT; but, he is definitely one to watch down the road.

How does this differ from what I posted? He is a guy with potential and in a good spot now but probably about a decade of going through the ranks of Brazilian soccer before he will have the experience that should be necessary for a MNT head coach. Even with Desportivo Brasil, it speaks well of him that they have hired him but he has only worked there for about a month as opposed to several years of success there. And while he might be a good current candidate for one of our youth teams I think he will develop better coaching knowledge staying in Brazil. The only Canadian coaches that I think that are currently qualified for this would be Van't Schip and possibly Lodeweges.

[Canuck Oranje]

I differ on one point. It will be more like two or three years and we would have to wonder why the CSA can't find a place for him to coach in Canada if it was longer than that. By being put in charge of the Desportivo Brasil U-20 team, he has already bypassed a large part of the dues-paying process in Brazil.

I understand that he just arrived but for him to be put in charge of Desportivo Brasil's Copa Sao Paulo team. Training will have started already started for the Copa Sao Paulo because teams begin to get assembled in September. That is nothing to be sneezed at.

There is some world class talent at his disposal in that team and we can only hope that Canada has some similar for 2018. If he does well (top 8) in January, he may already be picked up to work elsewhere (Narciso, who won this tournament last year, already filled in with the senior team at Palmeiras when Philipao was fired). If he has a solid three year run in Brazil, he should be put in charge of the Canada U-20 team at minimum.

[scoots]

I'd take Bruce Arena for 500k in a heartbeat. Hes got lots of experience in the region, at the world cup and should have a decent knowledge of many of our players. Also I think hes done a good job wherever hes been and seems to be respected by players, that sort of guy is right up our alley. That said I don't know why he'd leave the best gig in MLS.

I like Arena... But I don't see him leaving LAG anytime soon. I hear a lot of bigger names being thrown around but I don't see how they will fit in the budget. Times have changed since we hired Holger... The football world has progressed and managers salaries have grown and the CSA's economic situation is stuck in 1989. The reality is, in today's market we can't afford a coach who is similarly qualified to 1989 Holger Osieck.

I think we need to be looking for someone a little unconventional, someone who can succeed within our budget and organizational constraints, someone for whom coaching Canada to WCQ success is a opportunity they desire. Herdman is a nice fit with the women, he's coached a program with fewer resources and this opportunity in Canada was a step up for him but something he was ready to handle.

We need to find someone like that for the men. I agree with those that say we should look in Central America, but I think we need to cast a wider net and look at lesser known names in other places. Hopefully The CSA has the vision and connects to find the right guy on their budget... Which probably means somebody without the pedigree that the supporters want.

What about Collin Clark? He built a nice program with Islanders, they punched above their weight in champions league.

[Canuck Oranje]

Incidentally, it appears Dos Santos has been in Brazil since late 2011. He appears to have coached Primeira Camisa in the January 2012 edition of the Copa Sao Paulo making it to the final 16 losing to the eventual winner, Corinthians. Then took over the U15 side at Palmeiras. He took them to the third phase (third round robin) before leaving for Desportivo Brasil for the current job in September. That, by itself, is worth more than a couple of years of experience already. It also explains how he was able to get the job at Desportivo Brasil.

[Keegan]

Dos Santos should be in line for the 2015 U20 job for sure (unless Dasovic does well enough to keep it... qualification and a competitive performance in the WC). If not, he could definitely be a great candidate for the 2016 Olympic squad.

Obviously he's rated as a trainer but how would others rate him as a tactician? Specifically Impact supporters.

[Grizzly]

I differ on one point. It will be more like two or three years and we would have to wonder why the CSA can't find a place for him to coach in Canada if it was longer than that. By being put in charge of the Desportivo Brasil U-20 team, he has already bypassed a large part of the dues-paying process in Brazil.

I understand that he just arrived but for him to be put in charge of Desportivo Brasil's Copa Sao Paulo team. Training will have started already started for the Copa Sao Paulo because teams begin to get assembled in September. That is nothing to be sneezed at.

There is some world class talent at his disposal in that team and we can only hope that Canada has some similar for 2018. If he does well (top 8) in January, he may already be picked up to work elsewhere (Narciso, who won this tournament last year, already filled in with the senior team at Palmeiras when Philipao was fired). If he has a solid three year run in Brazil, he should be put in charge of the Canada U-20 team at minimum.

Yes we absolutely differ on this point. For senior team it should be something like 10 more years of experience. Three years is far too short a time to evaluate his abilities, there are many examples of coaches who had decent runs for that length of time and then were terrible afterwards. For our youth teams he could be an option earlier but I would rather he stayed in Brazil and learned the skills he needs to become a good senior team coach and that includes becoming the head coach of a good Brazilian professional team.

[Keegan]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1369316/Manchester-Uniteds-new-recruits-Brazil.html

This is a huge opportunity for Dos Santos. A Canadian developing Manchester United talent in Brazil? Strange...

[tyler453]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1369316/Manchester-Uniteds-new-recruits-Brazil.html

This is a huge opportunity for Dos Santos. A Canadian developing Manchester United talent in Brazil? Strange...

That's ridiculous. Let him stay there for a long time, then bring him in to the national team in some form.

[Grizzly]

Dos Santos should be in line for the 2015 U20 job for sure (unless Dasovic does well enough to keep it... qualification and a competitive performance in the WC). If not, he could definitely be a great candidate for the 2016 Olympic squad.

Obviously he's rated as a trainer but how would others rate him as a tactician? Specifically Impact supporters.

As I stated in my earlier post, he was given a lot of credit for the tactics when he was assistant trainer with Limniatis (on what basis he received credit I am not sure) yet the tactics when he was sole trainer of the team were definitely not as good as when Limniatis was there. I don't understand the hype around Dos Santos at all. He is a smart and like-able guy and now has a great opportunity to learn in Brazil but that does not make him an automatic candidate for national team coach. His tenure as head coach of the Impact was not that impressive outside a 3 month period in which we got on a run and won the championship. Now it is certainly impressive to have a championship on your CV at his age but on the other hand the Impact were budget wise the ManU of the USL. We should have been regularly winning championships. And both before and after the 3 month run the Impact played poor to mediocre soccer, especially in his last year in charge for which he should shoulder some of the blame. And it is great that he had a good run with Palmeiras U15 team but that is still as youth coach. I think we can still remember the TFC tenure of another youth coach from a great development team. It is not enough that he is in Brazil to make him a sudden national team coach candidate, I would suggest if we want a Brazilian coach the Brazilian U15 coaches are not the ones we should be looking for (though they would be great candidates for our U15 program).

Dos Santos has a rare opportunity for a Canadian coach and will hopefully learn a lot from it. However, it is way too soon for him to be in the discussion for senior national team coach. He would be ready to take over a younger national team earlier but do we really want to take him away from what he is learning in Brazil?

[Obinna]

I agree with Grizz, we need to set higher standards for what we expect of a CMNT coach. I would also like to see him have successful stints with at least 2-3 top flight Brazilian clubs before we brought him in as a coach of the national team. So yeah 10 years sounds about right, but then again there is no gaurentee his career will evolve this way. He could just work with youth for the next 10 years.

[youllneverwalkalone]

Generally international managers are a little older, and I get somewhat concerned when I see a younger guy pursue this type of job; mainly because it seems that they're just after a steady paycheck for 4 years and don't really care about progressing as a manager. Dos Santos seems to get this. Unlike all -or almost all- his contemporaries in Canada, he's making his own way in the world. That's a huge feet and he should be commended for not throwing his hat in the ring.

[Grizzly]

Generally international managers are a little older, and I get somewhat concerned when I see a younger guy pursue this type of job; mainly because it seems that they're just after a steady paycheck for 4 years and don't really care about progressing as a manager. Dos Santos seems to get this. Unlike all -or almost all- his contemporaries in Canada, he's making his own way in the world. That's a huge feet and he should be commended for not throwing his hat in the ring.

What I want to know is: How did YNWA find out he has huge feet?

Seriously though I do not dislike Dos Santos nor am I saying he is a poor coach. He was a really nice and accessible guy and great with the supporters. However, he was not the next coming of Mourinho when he took over the Impact. We played better under him than under De Santis but worse than under either Limniatis or Marsch. I don't know whether Limniatis could have sustained his good results since he was fired prematurely in my opinion but unless he were to get a lot more experience as a professional head coach he would not be a candidate for me. Marsch has made some rookie mistakes this year but for the most part has impressed me but would also not be a candidate for me right now though he might be in the future. Still at present I think Marsch is closer to being ready than Dos Santos is.

Dos Santos took over the Impact at the age of 32 and was younger than several of his players so I don't think it is that bad that some things were less than optimal. It was a huge learning experience for him. Now he has another great opportunity to learn. I think he is pretty similar to a player who gets into the system of a good team and is working his way through the youth ranks. One hopes the player will live up to his potential but the majority do not. Many hit a level where they can not get beyond and that could well happen with Dos Santos. But hopefully he will continue to impress and improve. For all I know he may end up being the best coach in Canadian history and leading us to the World Cup and I hope that is the case. But if so that is a long way in the future. It is certainly positive there are a few Canadian coaches who are getting coaching experience even if they are all a few years from being international level coaches.

If we want to look to Brazil for a coach the guys we should be looking at are the guys Dos Santos is learning from. MNT coach is a tough position requiring a lot of skill. We should be looking at hiring the teachers not the students.

[Unnamed Trialist]

I've thrown out the name of Agne a few times, years back, because he was a 2nd div coach taking a modest team, Girona, to good results. Young, modern, forward thinking. I happen to know someone close to him (someone who Girona fired along with him last year) and I understand that these young guys would love to do something internationally, they'd move around.

Thing is, I am not saying Agne would be great or anything like that. Simply that you have solid experienced coaches who are young with 2nd tier teams in Spain and they are excellent.

By the way, the coach Nsaliwa had so many complaints about at Pontferradina, Barragán, who was a striker at La Coruña, promoted the same team Tam left when they were relegated to 2B division the very next year. These are guys who have top level experience and know the game. Their competitive edge is total, and they are young. And there are many out there, in 2nd tiers of important leagues, who would come to Canada on a deal for half a million plus an assistant.

(I think if you hire a foreigner, excepting an American, you have to let them come with someone they trust to help them adjust to our odd situation (no national league to follow weekly) and to acclimatise, apart from being an extra voice in harmony with the coach's view. Sticking a foreigner amongst Canucks means risking the local boys undermining his work or forcing our negative inertias onto his model. Which I think would happen a lot.)

[villus]

I've thrown out the name of Agne a few times, years back, because he was a 2nd div coach taking a modest team, Girona, to good results. Young, modern, forward thinking. I happen to know someone close to him (someone who Girona fired along with him last year) and I understand that these young guys would love to do something internationally, they'd move around.

Thing is, I am not saying Agne would be great or anything like that. Simply that you have solid experienced coaches who are young with 2nd tier teams in Spain and they are excellent.

By the way, the coach Nsaliwa had so many complaints about at Pontferradina, Barragán, who was a striker at La Coruña, promoted the same team Tam left when they were relegated to 2B division the very next year. These are guys who have top level experience and know the game. Their competitive edge is total, and they are young. And there are many out there, in 2nd tiers of important leagues, who would come to Canada on a deal for half a million plus an assistant.

(I think if you hire a foreigner, excepting an American, you have to let them come with someone they trust to help them adjust to our odd situation (no national league to follow weekly) and to acclimatise, apart from being an extra voice in harmony with the coach's view. Sticking a foreigner amongst Canucks means risking the local boys undermining his work or forcing our negative inertias onto his model. Which I think would happen a lot.)

This sounds like a solid blue print for us, its going to be difficult for us to get a solid international with a long CV to work in our budget. Young guys from somewhere that they play very good soccer even in the 2nd division like Spain would be a fit economically and soccer wise should offer a fresh coaching experience from what we're used to. I think a Canadian assistant could work, but it would have to be the right guy and he would have to be vetted to make sure to avoid a Canadian protectionist attitude, either way we need to be creative and we need to move away from the CSA model of doing things up to this point. Hopefully Herdman will give them the impetus to look for a similar type for the mens team, fresh and upcoming is what we need, not upcoming in the sense of Pesch but upcoming in the sense of has not taken a high profile job but has worked in areas that play quality soccer and demand tactical knowledge.

[Keegan]

We need a coach with international experience period. I'm sure some of these 2nd division coaches are very talented are very well could be the answer but do you trust the CSA brass to identify them? I definitely agree with the fact that a non-American/Canadian would require an assistant to help them adjust... cutting even more into the budget for said coach. This will be tough folks.

[villus]

We need a coach with international experience period. I'm sure some of these 2nd division coaches are very talented are very well could be the answer but do you trust the CSA brass to identify them? I definitely agree with the fact that a non-American/Canadian would require an assistant to help them adjust... cutting even more into the budget for said coach. This will be tough folks.

I agree with your point that I wouldn't trust the CSA brass to identify a good coach from a far off league. Bottom line is the CSA has to gamble on coaches, Hart and Mitchell had international experience Mitchell just came off a terrible performance at home with the u-20's and still got the job, Hart was an assistant and had been in those hostile international areas. Coaches with proven records and international experience are much less in number than taking a up and coming coach who has a good soccer pedigree from a country like Spain or from a South American professional league. We need someone who is a good coach first and foremost, a good coach scouts his opposition, knows his players and finds out about the environments he will be going into. A good coach knows how to adjust tactics in game, and set lineups and tactics before a game, this does not change if you are playing in a professional league or as an international coach. We haven't had good proven coaches period, our budget forces us to gamble and the CSA has chosen to gamble on Canadians with severely limited experience.

So if we are going to gamble, I'd rather gamble on someone who has had to succeed in a country that can spot good soccer, in an environment that is very passionate about soccer and a coach who is practicing his craft in 30 game+ seasons. Bottom line is this for anything you are evaluating, the bigger sample size you have to evaluate the more likely you are to get it right. International coaches coach way less games per year and that means that there is much more variance and less data to evaluate their performance. A professional coach plays 30+ games a year, his results are much less down to luck and much more down to the actual product he is producing, that means it should be easier to get it right if a coach is doing the job in a place like La Liga 2. And if you are trying to prepare your players to go down into central america you bring someone in to consult the coach, its much easier to adjust to playing in Central America then it is to actually produce a team that plays good soccer. The issue of an international experienced coach is overblown.

[Sébastien]

Just throwing it out there, but what about Dominic Kinnear out of Houston?

No idea if he'd be interested or the CSA would be able to pry him out of Houston, but the man has had success in MLS and seems to always find a way to adjust to the level talent of his team and find ways to get results with what he has available.

[ditty]

I agree with your point that I wouldn't trust the CSA brass to identify a good coach from a far off league. Bottom line is the CSA has to gamble on coaches, Hart and Mitchell had international experience Mitchell just came off a terrible performance at home with the u-20's and still got the job, Hart was an assistant and had been in those hostile international areas.

IIRC, Mitchell was named MNT coach before the 2007 U-20 WC here at home, largely based on the previous tournament performances of the U-20s and their run in to 2007 where they got some good results.

[TEX]

Having a world-class coach for the Canadian men's team is like bringing in Sebastian Vettel to drive for Team Hyundai. You need to give the coach the right tools to work with. A world-class coach is only one part of what needs to be an integrated solution to improve the performance and competitiveness of our national team program internationally. At the moment, Canada is a Third World Soccer nation. Canada requires an investment in the game's infrastructure (e.g., coaching, training systems) and a stable political environment (i.e, removal of internal factions and fewer obstacles to implementing new and constructive initiatives).

Attracting a highly experienced coach with the right credentials is going to be a challenge for Canada without offering some big $. Even then, it's a bit of a hospital pass for this new coach without changes taking place in parallel for youth player development and coaching. The whole system needs to be reconstructed and realigned in terms of objectives, so there is symmetry from top to bottom.

I have always thought that someone like Jose Pekerman (former Argentine national team coach - he won U20 Championships and led Argentina to the 2006 World Cup in Germany) as someone that would be ideal for Canadian soccer. He has been involved in developing world-class players (Veron, Crespo, Riquelme, Cambiasso et al) in Argentina, is a proven winner internationally, endorses attractive soccer built on great ball skill and movement. He just took over the Colombian program and is doing wonders and Colombia will probably qualify for the next WC. He is also someone who is accustomed to preparing teams to play away games in hostile environments in South America.

I would encourage the CSA to work on developing the other pieces of the solution first before jumping the gun and hiring a coach in the hope that this will unilaterally solve Canada's problems.

The other thing which Canadian soccer needs is a Culture and an Identity. What is Canadian soccer? What does it mean to play for Canada? What values or style do we promote in the game in this country? It's a soft point but you can see it with other countries (e.g., Italy built on solid defence and great counterattack + teamwork, Germany built on fitness and organization, Brazil on "beautiful football", Australia on athleticism) but, it was totally invisible with the Canadian team during qualifying matches.

[Obinna]

The other thing which Canadian soccer needs is a Culture and an Identity. What is Canadian soccer? What does it mean to play for Canada? What values or style do we promote in the game in this country? It's a soft point but you can see it with other countries (e.g., Italy built on solid defence and great counterattack + teamwork, Germany built on fitness and organization, Brazil on "beautiful football", Australia on athleticism) but, it was totally invisible with the Canadian team during qualifying matches.

I agree that we need a culture and identity, but getting everyone on the same page will be a challenge.

I had a youth coach recently tell me that they "would rather have 11 players who were not very skilled but worked hard and never gave up, then skilled players who don't give their all". This shows an emphasis on "determination" and not "technical ability", and ultimately this exposes the ideology of results over development that currently dominates youth soccer (at least in my experience).

[jpg75]

I agree that we need a culture and identity, but getting everyone on the same page will be a challenge.

I had a youth coach recently tell me that they "would rather have 11 players who were not very skilled but worked hard and never gave up, then skilled players who don't give their all". This shows an emphasis on "determination" and not "technical ability", and ultimately this exposes the ideology of results over development that currently dominates youth soccer (at least in my experience).

I know what you're saying, but at the same time we don't really need skilled players that don't give their all. That's how 8-1 happens. It's also why you see so many highly skilled players from the U20 ranks end up going nowhere in their careers.

[Obinna]

I know what you're saying, but at the same time we don't really need skilled players that don't give their all. That's how 8-1 happens. It's also why you see so many highly skilled players from the U20 ranks end up going nowhere in their careers.

Completely understand what your saying, and I was going to edit that post and mention that I understand the importance of determination.

I am glad you see my point though.

[TEX]

I agree that we need a culture and identity, but getting everyone on the same page will be a challenge.

I had a youth coach recently tell me that they "would rather have 11 players who were not very skilled but worked hard and never gave up, then skilled players who don't give their all". This shows an emphasis on "determination" and not "technical ability", and ultimately this exposes the ideology of results over development that currently dominates youth soccer (at least in my experience).

Culture is something that takes time to develop. In North American culture, we are a results-driven society (not to mention impatient) so this trickles down into youth sport from parents and goes against the grain of what we need to improve the game in this country. A change in attitude has to start at the top with a Vision (someone who personifies it) of what we want to be as a Soccer Nation and then instill it throughout the system. If coaches are trained to encourage the development of fantastic little players with skill and proper team principles (and reinforce it by rewarding it), then it will manifest itself in the players themselves as they grow and develop. If we want to produce a bunch of Plumbers on the field, then we'll continue to be Number 85 in the world. Canada's always had to rely on hard work to make up for the lack of talent vs other countries but, there is a glass ceiling on how far we can go with this approach. The game has evolved so much in the past 20 yrs that you need to perfect the fundamentals of the game in order to even be able to step onto the field of intl play.

[TEX]

I know what you're saying, but at the same time we don't really need skilled players that don't give their all. That's how 8-1 happens. It's also why you see so many highly skilled players from the U20 ranks end up going nowhere in their careers.

Of course. I can't imagine that the players didn't give it their all and just went for a holiday to San Pedro Sula (there are much nicer places to go). I think the players were facing Shell Shock and mentally they just broke down. A good coach and good training also develops the mental aspect of the game and toughness to be able to keep your composure when things are going well.

[villus]

Having a world-class coach for the Canadian men's team is like bringing in Sebastian Vettel to drive for Team Hyundai. You need to give the coach the right tools to work with. A world-class coach is only one part of what needs to be an integrated solution to improve the performance and competitiveness of our national team program internationally. At the moment, Canada is a Third World Soccer nation. Canada requires an investment in the game's infrastructure (e.g., coaching, training systems) and a stable political environment (i.e, removal of internal factions and fewer obstacles to implementing new and constructive initiatives).

Attracting a highly experienced coach with the right credentials is going to be a challenge for Canada without offering some big $. Even then, it's a bit of a hospital pass for this new coach without changes taking place in parallel for youth player development and coaching. The whole system needs to be reconstructed and realigned in terms of objectives, so there is symmetry from top to bottom.

Its funny the Colombian team has been in a similar situation as Canada since 1998, good enough on paper but always underachieving and always using in house coaches with little experience outside of Colombia or promoting youth team coaches. As soon as Pekerman has come on the team really has taken off, granted the talent level is very high, but still shows what a little investment can do.

I have always thought that someone like Jose Pekerman (former Argentine national team coach - he won U20 Championships and led Argentina to the 2006 World Cup in Germany) as someone that would be ideal for Canadian soccer. He has been involved in developing world-class players (Veron, Crespo, Riquelme, Cambiasso et al) in Argentina, is a proven winner internationally, endorses attractive soccer built on great ball skill and movement. He just took over the Colombian program and is doing wonders and Colombia will probably qualify for the next WC. He is also someone who is accustomed to preparing teams to play away games in hostile environments in South America.

I would encourage the CSA to work on developing the other pieces of the solution first before jumping the gun and hiring a coach in the hope that this will unilaterally solve Canada's problems.

The other thing which Canadian soccer needs is a Culture and an Identity. What is Canadian soccer? What does it mean to play for Canada? What values or style do we promote in the game in this country? It's a soft point but you can see it with other countries (e.g., Italy built on solid defence and great counterattack + teamwork, Germany built on fitness and organization, Brazil on "beautiful football", Australia on athleticism) but, it was totally invisible with the Canadian team during qualifying matches.

Pekerman would be a great choice for Canada, hes done wonders with a Colombian team that has lots of talent but was always poorly coached in a lot of areas and underachieving. That said hes another unrealistic candidate, he was pretty expensive for Colombia about 2 million a year possibly and Colombia at first around 2010 decided he was too expensive and hired Hernan Gomez, he was involved in a scandal and quit, they then hired his assistant Lionel Alvarez who had little exprience but was from the famous 94 Colombian team, he coached 2 qualifiers and the Colombian FA decided it was time to stop screwing around and pay Pekerman, the team has looked completely different since Pekerman, he has been excellent in every area and no way Colombia let him go, I'd think they'd be very likely to try and keep him past 2014 as long as things don't go poorly at the WC which is a big if.