Junior "don't call me David' Hoilett joins Full-Time: Vancouver's Soccer Show

[dr. killinger]

Bingo.....

Grizz...the key statement you make is the one I've bolded.

If we only go from 1 MLS and 2 USL/NASL clubs to 3 MLS clubs in 2012, then we've made, at best, a incredibly tiny step forward from the present situation.

If, however, we do see 3-4 more full time pro clubs competing in USL/NASL, each with a proper development structure below the 1st team, then that is a pretty significant step forward. Fingers are firmly crossed that it happens.

Has there been any talk in MTL about what happens with Saputo's NASL spot when Impact jump to MLS in 2012 (or 2011)??? It's widely discussed that Whitecaps have a plan to keep operating in the 2nd tier (and probably attaching its academy to that 2nd tier club) but no word from Montreal.

I was mostly just comparing Jamaica and Canada. If you look at the two now, the A-squad for both programs are at approximately the same level. There are currently seven canadian players on TFC. If the expansion teams in Montreal and Vancouver give the program maybe 5-6 new players who can play at an MLS level, thats 5 or 6 players we might not have known about. Compared to Jamaica, thats really good. When I look at their complete roster, its composed of a few guys playing in the premier league and championship, a few more playing in MLS and scandinavia, and the rest are pretty much domestic based players. That's not bad for a country of 5 million, but you have to concede that Canada's program has more potential in the short run and long run. And two more MLS teams giving chances to canadian players who otherwise wouldn't be given chances is an important part of that.

[VPjr]

If the expansion teams in Montreal and Vancouver give the program maybe 5-6 new players who can play at an MLS level, thats 5 or 6 players we might not have known about.

I don't want to belabour the point because I agree with the basic concept that more Full Pro teams = good.

However, more Canadian MLS Team will not really create job opportunities for unknowns. it just means that more guys kicking around on the fringes of Europe or some young guys from NTCs will get a shot to play in MLS. More MLS teams are not going to immediately have a significant impact on our player development problems. Doubling the number of fully pro teams (each with an academy) will have a good impact. Adding a decent 3rd tier of pro/semi-pro/major junior, will also be hugely impactful.

Jamaica has that 2nd Tier/3rd Tier of pro soccer and I'd wager that we would be a lot better off having their 2nd/3rd tier pro infrastructure than we are with our current system. They don't have a 1st tier so they rely on the rest of the world to give the best of their best a 1st tier pro opportunity. They also have a system of youth development built around feeding their 2nd/3rd Tier pro clubs, unlike us.

I hate to say it, but they also have a socio-economic "benefit" (in terms of having the right environment for developping talent) that we don't have....alot more poverty, creating a huge pool of youngsters who see soccer as an escape from their problems. In Canada, soccer is an urban/suburban pastime. Our kids are rarely pinning their hopes on a pro soccer career in order to escape crushing poverty. Add to that the lack of appropriate/attainable pathways to pro soccer and you can see why we don't produce as many truly elite players as island nations with a fraction of our resources and significantly smaller populations.

[dr. killinger]

Yes, the point is that MLS will give an opportunity to players who aren't doing well in europe so they can prove themselves. Attakora probably wouldn't be playing on the NT right now if he was still in europe. Haber might still be on the 2nd team of some dutch club. (USL example, but the same basic principle applies). Young american players who are struggling abroad will often come back to MLS to get themselves in NT contention. I doubt Jakovic would be starting and getting the accolades he is getting if he were still in Europe. Same with Will Johnson. And you have to think that more teams will be looking for more canadian players, either abroad or domestically. I'm not saying that getting 2 more MLS teams will be the magic elixir for the Men's team, but it will give more options to canadian players in general, and thats always a good thing.

And I'm guessing that the Jamaican premier league isn't top class either. Nearly all MLS teams should be able to beat a pro team from the Caribbean. And I don't buy the poverty answer either. Denmark is a small nation as well, but their football team is better then both Jamaica's and Canada's. And no one is calling the average dane poor. If anything, having a large percentage of the population in poverty hurts a nation's athletic development. But I suppose that is debate for another day.

[masster]

I will argue that NASL teams are even more important than MLS teams for us to develop more players. Look at the example of Marcus Haber...if the Whitecaps were in MLS, would Haber have gotten the playing time he needed to develop and showcase himself for a bigger club? Probably not. Our best players will always find places to play, it is that middle tier that we need to have options for. That is why I am so excited whenever I hear news about Edmonton, Hamilton, etc.

[canucklefan]

And I don't buy the poverty answer either. Denmark is a small nation as well, but their football team is better then both Jamaica's and Canada's. And no one is calling the average dane poor.

How can you compare Denmark and Jamaica economic system? Also, it's not just a question of money, it's also culture between many other factors and in football culture, Denmark and Jamaica are way ahead of us.

[dr. killinger]

How can you compare Denmark and Jamaica economic system? Also, it's not just a question of money, it's also culture between many other factors and in football culture, Denmark and Jamaica are way ahead of us.

Yes, both your average Jamaican and Dane like soccer more than the average Canadian. That wasn't the point. The point is that there isn't any real evidence to back up the claim that more poverty in a country makes the country produce more and better soccer players.

Also, just because a country isn't a traditional football country doesn't mean its national team can't find success. And a country can change their sports preferences. I doubt many people in Japan could give a toss about soccer 20 years ago. Now it's one of Japan's most popular sports.

[jpg75]

The easy answer to what produces good soccer players is motivation. Whether that motivation is generated by the need for financial stability, to prove doubters wrong or to feed your personal ego, that's what it boils down to. Problem for us is that not enough of our elite youth soccer players in this country have the motivation to take it to the top level.

[Juby]

People always trounce on social factors cause you can make them go both ways sometimes, but generally I still think that for example a country with a lot of people will have a better chance at soccer (well aware china and india have a billion people) but this is just a helping factor. Poverty, seems to crush sum countries and inspire others, wealth seems to do the same, I still think having more money while increase your odds of doing well but theirs all sorts of examples contrary to this. I think the most important factor is probably soccer culture (ie widespread love of the game), after you subtract the countries that generally don't care for soccer as much as the 'soccer nations' that alot of the teams left will generally fall into where the first two factors put them (with a few exceptions like croatia)

[Obinna]

not to be "that" guy, but can we get this thread back on track??

...I find duane's comments rather interesting. Can't really say I disagree a whole lot. I would like the Jamacians to interview him and hear how he responds...

[jpg75]

I just can't see him playing for Jamaica, he has nothing to gain from it. If Jamaica was such a good option then why didn't Janeil go play for them? Because their Fed is even more f@$&ed than ours...If anything he just won't bother playing internationally.

[CanadianSoccerFan]

How does he have a work permit to play in the UK? You'd think he'd need caps to keep it.

[VPjr]

^ very good question...I have my theories about how it happened and that theory involves the CSA confirming that he would have the necessary caps if he had accepted all the invitations he had been extended....just a theory and I don't know if it is even possible to be granted a work permit based on that but if not, why was a special exemption made for young Hoillett otherwise?

[Guest Ed]

^ very good question...I have my theories about how it happened and that theory involves the CSA confirming that he would have the necessary caps if he had accepted all the invitations he had been extended....just a theory and I don't know if it is even possible to be granted a work permit based on that but if not, why was a special exemption made for young Hoillett otherwise?

He fits into the star player category. Blackburn had highlights from his season at FC St Pauli and the permit review panel bought that he was an exceptional talent --- work permit granted. They did not think they would be able to get it so easily but were happy they did. I don't think the CSA was involved at all. I can try to confirm that if you like.

[Obinna]

^I would say that is definatly likley Ed.

As for the Jamacia thing, I don't think compairing Junior and Janiel will be insightful. Janiel is only a year younger(I'm pretty sure..) and not even close to the same level as Junior career wise. Point being whats good for Janiel isn't nessacarily good for Junior. Janiel has everything to gain from being a international (albiet youth), but what does Junior have to gain? Can anyone argue that he would benifit from playing for Canada or Jamacia right now? The only team he would benifit from would mabye be England, but he doesn't even qualify. If he turns down a call for the May friendly(s) I would be interested to know if its because he wants to "concentrate" on club football. The EPL will be over by then no?

[jpg75]

^ I think what Janeil has done does have some bearing on the situation. If the family viewed Jamaica as the superior option to Canada then why wouldn't Janeil play for them instead of us? The more the situation unfolds, the less likely the family/father holds a grudge for Junior being cut by Rivas Sr. due to the politics. If anything, maybe Junior himself is holding the grudge?

[Obinna]

^ I think what Janeil has done does have some bearing on the situation. If the family viewed Jamaica as the superior option to Canada then why wouldn't Janeil play for them instead of us? The more the situation unfolds, the less likely the family/father holds a grudge for Junior being cut by Rivas Sr. due to the politics. If anything, maybe Junior himself is holding the grudge?

This is definatly a logical reasoning. However, it is also possible that Janiel was never ever contacted by the Jamacia FA. Jamacia seems to bring in young strikers in from their Premier League instead of youth players from Europe with Jamacian heritage. It is certainly cheaper and coaches can easily watch players from the island progress with their clubs.

I don't think we are in the position to think we are clearly more favorable than Jamacia at this point, even though we are 30 points ahead of them in the FIFA rankings.

I think we have to wait and see how good Junior is going to be because if he really progresses and stays in England he may want to suit up with them. However I remember in an interview (rednation online?) he said that he would not mind at all moving back to Germany. Of course this could be viewed in two ways: 1. Blackburn may sell him to a club like Hamburg (who expressed interest) which would elimanate the English NT option because of resendancy requirements etc. 2. Blackburn may loan him to Hamburg or elsewhere in the B1 which may not affect Brisith resendancy requirements for citizenship? (I do not know these rules in detail). The interesting thing is, he seems open to going back to Germany and for someone with aspirations to play for England (which is hypothetical at this point) such comments appear odd!

[jpg75]

Pretty sure the Jamaicans know about Janeil, they knew about the De Guzmans and Taylor Lord so i don't see why they wouldn't know about the Hoiletts.

A loan move outside the country would reset the residency clock.

[Obinna]

Well that is good news then, hopefully he moves on to Germany.