Stephen Hart - The Right Choice for 2014?

[BearcatSA]

Regarding Hart, I heard his interview on Soccercentral and he's talking up the right things, particularly trying to build more legitimate competition and depth at each position on the MNT squad. And in the past a number of people have advocated on this forum that this should be a big focus of his mandate for the immediate future, so that's one step in the right direction.

[bettermirror]

Masster: Not only do players have to be part of NTC to be considered for a national team, but they first have to be in the provincial team. To be in the provincial team your parents need to take out a significant personal loan (or have ability to borrow), live within driving distance of the training site (has been Richmond....not exactly the easiest place to get to!). Not only that but you have to act quickly enough to register for a provincial trial. There are limited spots, and if you miss out on going to the coach (rather than the coach going and watching you in a proper environment ... Saturdays at the park!) for these assessments your chance is shot. I understand limited spots at the trials in Richmond (which are on cold nights, playing full-sided games, and players come back with muscle injuries due to inactivity then having to run at full pace!), but the coaches should be doing the leg work every Saturday/Sunday throughout the province. (Sean Fleming attended a metro-level game a few weeks ago....because 7 NTC boys were in the game, who all happen to play for the same team. The NTC boys were defeated 1-0 by a team who had their goalie playing striker and 1 substitute due to injuries).

I guess if you are in a professional set-up out of the country or TFC/Whitecaps/Montreal you can reasonably expect to be called-up for an assessment at national level. I would love to know TFC's and Montreal's scouting/selection process.

By the by, the only way you are getting into the Whitecaps set-up is either playing for the WFC Y League teams, or provincial teams. Whitecaps have all the BC Y league teams listed as affiliates - THEY ARE NOT all affiliated. Further, even if you get into the Whitecaps, the rumour is Neindorf (residency) and Choufour (prospect) have not only a non-existent working relationship, they might not even care to know where the other's phone number was jotted down on a piece of paper for them.

Further, when clubs do reach out to the Whitecaps, how often do the Whitecaps respond to requests, invites, recommendations......from what I am told, rarely. Even when this invite/request is in the best interests of the Whitecaps and at NO COST to the Caps beyond the coaches/staff time.

There should be probably 20-30 NTC's in BC alone (even in the Fraser Valley which is roughly two hours from North Van to Chilliwack, plus the north-south reaches of Golden Ears to Richmond/Tsawwassen, there should probably be 4-6 NTC's alone). Those NTC's should be having regular get togethers. OH YA....and they should be free.

Believe me, as a youth coach, I am well aware of some outstanding talent that doesn't have a prayer unless they can get themselves overseas (and overseas coaches have definitely expressed interest and invited numerous boys back for more official trials - yet BC soccer won't look at these boys because they aren't WFC or provincial program players).

Basically, this country is so far away from a proper scouting system and player identification system it's ridiculous - thus I say, we have NO HOPE of reaching our potential until this changes.

[bettermirror]

Masster: Not only do players have to be part of NTC to be considered for a national team, but they first have to be in the provincial team. To be in the provincial team your parents need to take out a significant personal loan (or have ability to borrow), live within driving distance of the training site (has been Richmond....not exactly the easiest place to get to!). Not only that but you have to act quickly enough to register for a provincial trial. There are limited spots, and if you miss out on going to the coach (rather than the coach going and watching you in a proper environment ... Saturdays at the park!) for these assessments your chance is shot. I understand limited spots at the trials in Richmond (which are on cold nights, playing full-sided games, and players come back with muscle injuries due to inactivity then having to run at full pace!), but the coaches should be doing the leg work every Saturday/Sunday throughout the province. (Sean Fleming attended a metro-level game a few weeks ago....because 7 NTC boys were in the game, who all happen to play for the same team. The NTC boys were defeated 1-0 by a team who had their goalie playing striker and 1 substitute due to injuries).

I guess if you are in a professional set-up out of the country or TFC/Whitecaps/Montreal you can reasonably expect to be called-up for an assessment at national level. I would love to know TFC's and Montreal's scouting/selection process.

By the by, the only way you are getting into the Whitecaps set-up is either playing for the WFC Y League teams, or provincial teams. Whitecaps have all the BC Y league teams listed as affiliates - THEY ARE NOT all affiliated. Further, even if you get into the Whitecaps, the rumour is Neindorf (residency) and Choufour (prospect) have not only a non-existent working relationship, they might not even care to know where the other's phone number was jotted down on a piece of paper for them.

Further, when clubs do reach out to the Whitecaps, how often do the Whitecaps respond to requests, invites, recommendations......from what I am told, rarely. Even when this invite/request is in the best interests of the Whitecaps and at NO COST to the Caps beyond the coaches/staff time.

There should be probably 20-30 NTC's in BC alone (even in the Fraser Valley which is roughly two hours from North Van to Chilliwack, plus the north-south reaches of Golden Ears to Richmond/Tsawwassen, there should probably be 4-6 NTC's alone). Those NTC's should be having regular get togethers. OH YA....and they should be free.

Believe me, as a youth coach, I am well aware of some outstanding talent that doesn't have a prayer unless they can get themselves overseas (and overseas coaches have definitely expressed interest and invited numerous boys back for more official trials - yet BC soccer won't look at these boys because they aren't WFC or provincial program players).

Basically, this country is so far away from a proper scouting system and player identification system it's ridiculous - thus I say, we have NO HOPE of reaching our potential until this changes.

[Eric]

^ Very well explained, it's the same in Ontario and TFC doesn't do anything to help developing youth soccer either. The system is corrupt with people who just want to collect a pay cheque even though in a true football nation they would never even be closed to ever be part of an organized system.

To do things right, you need to know what you're doing and that is what we don't have in Canada, enough people who know what they're doing but on the other hand we're packed with free riders at every level of the sport.

Last week I had a conversation with a British professional coach from England, who came to Canada to spend Christmas with family members he hasn't seen for many years. We started talking about how things have to be done to be successful in developing players to an elite level. He said many things that made a lot of sense to me, but one stood out, he said that most British people involve in soccer in Canada, have probably never been involved in the professional game back home at all, and the few that had played the game at a pro level, have never been involved in coaching at a pro level at all either, either with youths or senior players. But they arrive here and thanks to their articulated vocabulary and knowledge of football terminology, they become believable to the average Canadian who has no idea about the sport and make their way into high and decision making positions in national, state, provincial organizations and clubs at most english speaking countries or ex colonies around the world. He said, this is very common in Australia, New Zealand, Asia, Africa and North America. The sad part is he said, that these so called experts would have never had a sniff of the professional sport back home, but they go to all these countries with predicaments of knowledge and all they do is secure a pay check but in the process they set progress and evolution of the sport backwards, of course till they're stop for good, just like it happened in Australia.

Here, I told him, we are at the early stages still, Canadians still buying all the mirrors and inhaling all the smoke these so called "experts" throw at them and in the process getting more entangle in the mediocrity and ignorance these people evoke around the country. I told him that there's an other group of wannabes now doing the same thing in Canada and they are not British but Italians, he laughed loudly and joked about the fact that Italians are louder so they would be heard from farther out, so they might even get more people to buy in the myth because the same principals apply to them too, probably only a handful have ever been involved at the professional level of the sport, either as players but most importantly as coaches, and only when you have been involved at that level is when you can say that you know how to do the right job.

So after hearing him for a while, I figured that we're in for a very long ride at the hands of all these wannabes and their supposedly working methods of coaching and developing talent towards qualifying to world cups in the future. Too bad, I was hoping to see Canada progressing in my life time, but I think I'll leave that for my children to enjoy.

[bettermirror]

I must say I am very pleased to have coaching involvement with one of these coaches with "professional" British experience....the changes he suggests are revolutionary here....completely logical and applied most everywhere else!

[Eric]

^ Yeah, I knew one too.....Dick Bate, but when he realized what Canadian soccer was all about he run away after ten months in the job. Too bad.

[bettermirror]

Tells you about Bate's work ethic to me...

[ANC2]

Amazing to me to see Paul James as a pundit. A man for with little integrity when you think of Canada soccer. He talks about "Inmates running the Asylum"! He should know, in the 2001 U20 WC in Argentina, ask any of the players (most of which are on the current National team) what happened. Paul James lost control of the players, rumors of drinking and late nights out. It was also yet another Canada U20 team that failed to score a goal.

Short memory! Or did he think all of us are Johnny come lately fans?

I have said it before and I will say it again. Canada simply does not have enough quality players at the International level. Holger said it, Yallop said it, Mitchell said it! No coach can compensate for that FACT! Yet Canada Teams can always count on my support.

[The Ref]

Paul James fits Eric's description to a T. I wish we would stop talking about PJ, the man is finished in all respects.

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by ANC2

Amazing to me to see Paul James as a pundit. A man for with little integrity when you think of Canada soccer. He talks about "Inmates running the Asylum"! He should know, in the 2001 U20 WC in Argentina, ask any of the players (most of which are on the current National team) what happened. Paul James lost control of the players, rumors of drinking and late nights out. It was also yet another Canada U20 team that failed to score a goal.

Short memory! Or did he think all of us are Johnny come lately fans?

I have said it before and I will say it again. Canada simply does not have enough quality players at the International level. Holger said it, Yallop said it, Mitchell said it! No coach can compensate for that FACT! Yet Canada Teams can always count on my support.

Never heard of those rumours but if this is true players must be blame as well.

As for your last paragraph, since you recognized this fact why do you bother blaming James for coaching a team who didn't score a goal at a WC. At least they got there, something we rarely do at all the men's levels.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Eric

Last week I had a conversation with a British professional coach from England, who came to Canada to spend Christmas with family members he hasn't seen for many years....

It's easy for anyone to come up with anecdotal stuff like that. It actually becomes credible when names are named especially given the fact that English soccer traditionally remains active throughout the holiday period with a full set of games scheduled on Boxing Day. Say what you like about somebody like Jim Cannovan but he actually did play for Alloa and Barnsley. I can think of two others who have been involved in coaching in Ontario at a high enough level to be relevant to the development of potential national team players who I watched play at a professional level in Scotland when I was growing up. The one, people should definitely have heard of on here would be Tony Taylor who has coached at a pro level in the UK as well as in Canada:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Taylor_%28footballer%29

People like that would spot a wannabe with nothing to offer but an accent a mile off as would the likes of Colin Miller, Graham Leggatt, Tony Waiters and Dick Howard. Most elite Canadian soccer players come from first or second generation immigrant backgrounds in which soccer is taken very seriously indeed so the notion that Canadians who know nothing about the sport are being bamboozled by unqualified British people is bizarre and clearly bears no correlation with reality. The Canadians who would fit that stereotype would usually be actively involved with hockey and baseball etc instead if they were involved in sports at an elite level and would tend to treat soccer as no more than a recreational activity for their kids if they pay any attention to it at all. The potential to reach an elite level you simply don't belong at is more on the administrator side than the coaching side of things, in my opinion. A fairer criticism would be that British coaches have had an undue level of influence relative to other immigrant groups, who had a lot to offer as well.

As for The Ref's comment about Paul James fitting Eric's description the small matter of playing 47 times for Canada including in the 1986 World Cup finals would point to the fact that he is actually very well qualified to earn a paycheque as a coach within Canadian soccer and to comment on the inner workings of the CMNT in a national newspaper. Always find it slightly mind-boggling that the views of the people who have actually been there like Paul James and Bob Iarusci can be so easily dismissed sometimes by people who have not on fan messageboards.

[ag futbol]

PJ is as usual caught up in the idea of his own self-importance. His tone is the usual “me big coach, you village idiots” which I think is a lot closer to the reason why nobody cares to put him on TV.

While having more knowledge of soccer than probably anybody on this board, James isn’t nearly the master of the universe he represents himself as. Sometimes his analysis is so far off the mark one can’t help but laugh about Carl Robinson “the excellent passer” or the small group of fans who somehow turned the tide for SH. It seems odd that for someone who would appear to have a superior petigree compared to others writing in the press, he can't seem to translate that to print.

It further confuses me how in a practically identical situation 2 or 3 years ago he couldn’t have possibly been further on the other side of the fence, advocating Dale Mitchell. I don’t think the reasons behind this logical disconnect paints a very flattering picture of his reasoning or motivation.

[Cheeta]

Certainly two camps developed over the appointment.

One saying Hart has shown enough to be afforded the opportunity to grow into a worthy MNT coach over the next couple of years. We're years away from qualifying for 2014 and he's shown some potential so why not? The criticism being largely he doesn't have WC or WCQ experience and is part of the CSA Old Boys Club. Two huge facts which have contributed to our last two disastrous WCQ campaigns.

The other camp calls for an experienced international coach, meaning the CSA would have to hire from outside of the organization. That a proven international will get the most from our limited player pool, which has been accused of being a bit too cozy of late, and have our NT turned around and hitting stride by the time WCQ begins again in 2012. The criticism of this approach being not that it isn't a reasonable idea it's just that it's an unrealistic theory given both our player pool and more importantly the CSA's budget.

We'd all like to see the MNT budget dramatically improved but the reality is until we're able to hire a world class international manager and</u> afford to provide the MNT an annual budget to take advantage of that world class talent our options are limited. Which has opened the door for Mr Hart.

I'm sure everyone wishes Stephen Hart great success. We're in it with him now.

By the way, couple of links. Bit of chit chat about the appointment.

http://www.fan590.com/onair/soccer/

and recommended viewing..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SShRyPjqq38&feature=related

[Eric]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

It's easy for anyone to come up with anecdotal stuff like that. It actually becomes credible when names are named especially given the fact that English soccer traditionally remains active throughout the holiday period with a full set of games scheduled on Boxing Day. Say what you like about somebody like Jim Cannovan but he actually did play for Alloa and Barnsley. I can think of two others who have been involved in coaching in Ontario at a high enough level to be relevant to the development of potential national team players who I watched play at a professional level in Scotland when I was growing up. The one, people should definitely have heard of on here would be Tony Taylor who has coached at a pro level in the UK as well as in Canada:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Taylor_%28footballer%29

People like that would spot a wannabe with nothing to offer but an accent a mile off as would the likes of Colin Miller, Graham Leggatt, Tony Waiters and Dick Howard. Most elite Canadian soccer players come from first or second generation immigrant backgrounds in which soccer is taken very seriously indeed so the notion that Canadians who know nothing about the sport are being bamboozled by unqualified British people is bizarre and clearly bears no correlation with reality. The Canadians who would fit that stereotype would usually be actively involved with hockey and baseball etc instead if they were involved in sports at an elite level and would tend to treat soccer as no more than a recreational activity for their kids if they pay any attention to it at all. The potential to reach an elite level you simply don't belong at is more on the administrator side than the coaching side of things, in my opinion. A fairer criticism would be that British coaches have had an undue level of influence relative to other immigrant groups, who had a lot to offer as well.

As for The Ref's comment about Paul James fitting Eric's description the small matter of playing 47 times for Canada including in the 1986 World Cup finals would point to the fact that he is actually very well qualified to earn a paycheque as a coach within Canadian soccer and to comment on the inner workings of the CMNT in a national newspaper. Always find it slightly mind-boggling that the views of the people who have actually been there like Paul James and Bob Iarusci can be so easily dismissed sometimes by people who have not on fan messageboards.

Did I mentioned anywhere that this coach was presently working in Britain? I'm not going to write his name here because that's not the point, the point is he is spot on on his statement of how it works for smart asses that go collecting cash around the world based in bull sh!t that ignorant people about the sport buy.

You're obviously one of those who buys mirrors and smoke from people like Jim Cannovan believing that just because they played professional they can actually coach too!!!! you even go further and said there are coaches who coached at a high level in Ontario? what is high level in Ontario? the provincial youth team? a regional team? what is high level coaching to you? any of those I just mentioned do not fall in that category, I can assure that, they don't compete in a regular season of anything, they just play tournaments and that, doesn't make anybody a high level coach, believe me.

You mentioned Tony Taylor, wasn't it him the one who cut Owen Hargreaves from the national program? great expertise he had, right!!.....give me a break, if he would have been any good he would have stay back home where the game is fully professional and he could have the opportunity to grow as a coach and show if he had what it takes to be a real manager, but instead he chose Canada, the perfect garage sale for wannabes, the country where if you have that accent suddenly who have instant credibility.

"People like that would spot a wannabe with nothing to offer but an accent a mile off" he would never want to spot a wannabe because he is one of them and the other wannabes might put him on the spot.

Graham Leggatt coached in Canada? I don't think so, but yes he was the real thing as far as a knowledgeable soccer person is concern, but he was not a coach and he never told anybody that as far as I know, so he was NOT a wannabe, he knew what he was an expert on, so don't mix apples and oranges here please. I'm talking about the ones who bullsh!t their way into decision making positions at the CSA, Provincial Associations, Districts and worst of all into clubs, spreading their ignorance and arrogance among people who have no choice but to believe what they say and do because they themselves don't know any better.

Colin Miller and Tony Waiters are real professional coaches with proven track record as such, plus the fact that they played the game at the pro level too. Dick Howard has been more of a assistant coach and instructor than a head coach. In my view to be called a professional coach, you need to coach a team of pros, day in day out for at least a full season (8 to 11 months) and you need to be forced to win to keep your job, that is a PROFESSIONAL COACH in my view, the rest are all wannabes and bullsh!tters.

[Ivan]

^ I thought Graham coached Edmonton in the original CPSL or NPSL?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Graham Leggatt definitely coached in a Canadian context:-

http://www.thesoccerhalloffame.ca/OSN.nsf/c1bfa845a2dec3bf85256b0b005d4116/7e1ceba3d54c7dd685256b0c00731a18?OpenDocument

Eric's notion that the average Canadian knows nothing about soccer might be applicable in parts of rural PEI or Saskatchewan (note the word might before launching into a rant if you are from there ) but is way wide of the mark in the major urban centres where most CMNT players grow up. A very significant portion of the population in southern Ontario, the Montreal area, Winnipeg, Edmonton, Calgary and lower mainland BC etc know and love the game and from the 50s onwards have built the sport up to a local semi-pro sort of level comparable to what happens in many other parts of the world. All that has been missing is a sustainable fully pro tier at the apex of the pyramid. Canada is far from alone in that. Hopefully that's in the past for good now with the imminent participation of three Canadian teams in MLS and the possibility that pro teams will also emerge in cities like Ottawa and Edmonton if the new NASL manages to get sanctioned by the USSF and CSA. In the absence of quality fully pro teams with the demise of the original NASL it stands to reason that relatively few coaches with extensive coaching as opposed to playing experience at a fully pro level would be moving to Canada specifically to coach or were developed in a Canadian context in that period of about 20 years so Eric's argument is a circular one.

[Mobiiiiiiiilio]

Another point of view on the subject....Godfrey seems to disagree with his former analyst....interesting!

http://www.goltv.ca/blog/lee_godfrey_soccer_blog/118

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by Mobiiiiiiiilio

Another point of view on the subject....Godfrey seems to disagree with his former analyst....interesting!

http://www.goltv.ca/blog/lee_godfrey_soccer_blog/118

Thanks for posting this article.

So many things wrong with that paragraph.

quote:It was at that time the Stephen Hart era started...sort of. Canada was certainly not expected to have much success at the 2007 Gold Cup, but Hart’s player selection and his ability to get the most out of his players showed to anyone who watched. A blown call at the end of the semi-final against the United States stopped the game from going into extra time with the USA down to ten men, stopped the game from going to penalties and maybe even stopped a date with Mexico in the final. I found it shocking when news leaked before the U-20 World Cup began that Dale Mitchell would be the next national team Head Coach after his tenure as U-20 Head Coach. It was shocking because after Canada’s U-20 side set all sorts of records and not for good reasons that the CSA did not wait to see how things would turn out at that tournament to make their decision, but instead promoting someone who failed.

First, it was known 2-3 months prior to the start of the 2007 GC that Mitchell would lead the team after the U-20 WC. It was understand that Hart was coaching the team on an interim basis beofre Mitchell would take the lead.

Knowing those facts would probably lead you to believe ehe players selection wasn't Hart decision, but more a decision of Mitchell and Hart with Mitchell having the last word.

The CSA never promoted someone who failed since they hired DM before he failed. Also, if youth results are so important (something I kind of doubt), isn't hiring Hart, a man who failed 3 times with the U-17 at the regional level, is kind of promoting someone who failed?

[The Ref]

I'll go out on a limb here thinking that DM was a political appointment after the fiasco with Simoes and it was doomed to be a failure before he even started. Hart is liked by many including the players. He is an upbeat guy, well spoken and that can get results. I like to believe he is someone who learns from previous mistakes and moves upwards with a positive attitude. I also like to believe we have not seen the best of him as yet.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Mobiiiiiiiilio

Another point of view on the subject....Godfrey seems to disagree with his former analyst....interesting!

http://www.goltv.ca/blog/lee_godfrey_soccer_blog/118

What he seems to overlook is that most coaches have a shelf-life in any job (cue somebody piping up about the obvious exceptions to the rule like Alex Ferguson or Guy Roux) before people get sick of the sight of them. The players may have wanted Holger Osieck out as he had worn out his welcome but that doesn't mean that things can't ever work now or in the future with another experienced coach from overseas.

[Guest Ed]

Yeah right. Don't see the beauty of having David Hoilett (if he does decide to join us) ragging errant balls during practice myself. The Euros just don't understand CONCACAF. Boris was ancient history when Mexico could walk to any final. Don't see the Euro coach scenario working out nowadays.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

Yeah right. Don't see the beauty of having David Hoilett (if he does decide to join us) ragging errant balls during practice myself. The Euros just don't understand CONCACAF.

You are really seriously trying to argue that all European coaches should be eliminated from future consideration because you believe they would do exactly what Osieck did 10 years ago in training sessions? I wrote "overseas" rather than European for what it's worth. Honduras just qualified with a Colombian coach called Reinaldo Rueda. Some pedant might object to the use of overseas in that context due to the narrow land connection between the Americas in Panama but I had that sort of scenario in mind as well as a European.