Vic Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Haven't read de Vos but there is a huge difference between coaching 15-16yr old kids and professional men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag futbol Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 quote:Originally posted by bettermirror Our youth teams are doomed to failure so long as the NTC's selection/scouting process is run the way it is (at least in BC). I was actually going to mention something like this but i wasn't sure if it was just me or a real piece of truth. I spent a little over a year playing in the united states and I was shocked at the amount of scouting they did on all levels. I was playing U13 (at a pretty below average level) and there were scouts EVERYWHERE scrapping for every piece of talent they could get. And it went from their elite teams all the way down to the last division that was one step above non-competitive. Compare that to when i came back to Canada to play, I could rarely see anybody scouting anywhere for anything. The scouting process was more like a networking function for MBA's. Basically the kids and their parents walk around kissing ass to try and get ahead. No wonder we have issues producing players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masster Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Right on JamboAl. I didn't mind PJ's article except for that one sentance about us either. "The small yet vocal group of pro-active fans...are in favour of Hart’s hiring." Even the title of this thread has a question mark in it. Does that look like we know he is the answer? I'm just glad that somebody has been hired, period. Whether it was Hart or not, a decision needed to be made. At this point, I would rather have the wrong decision than no decision at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 quote:Originally posted by JamboAl If you want to discuss Western Europe, look at a country like Scotland...same problems, and in a place with a distinctive football history. Really? The CSA can only dream of having home grown coaches with the experience level of Walter Smith, Alex McLeish and even George Burley making themselves available and I don't see any ex-Champions League and World Cup finals players like Dan Petrescu types publicly campaigning for the CMNT job:- http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/internationals/8402689.stm Beyond that I suspect Paul James overstates the influence of this messageboard somewhat relative to the opinion of the more experienced CMNT players. This appointment is just another example of what is wrong with the CSA, in my opinion. More to do with internal old boys club type politics than a burning desire to achieve success. The reason this messageboard goes along meekly with an appointment like this is probably that most Canadian soccer fans long ago turned away in disgust and tuned this stuff out for the most part so it's a bit like the Lynx fan base 5 years ago relative to the latent support that could be attracted if a more professionally run operation (think TFC) arrived on the scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havoc88 Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 quote:Originally posted by El Hombre Don't forget though that article isn't his blog on the globe it's the article that is printed in the paper. There is a word count limit on that. I'm pretty sure he said before he believes we should be looking at coaches that have CONCACAF experience, and ideally those who have experience not just in this region but qualifying teams from this region. If our goal is to qualify for the world cup then these are things that might be a good idea to be factored into coaching decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboAl Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard Really? The CSA can only dream of having home grown coaches with the experience level of Walter Smith, Alex McLeish and even George Burley making themselves available and I don't see any ex-Champions League and World Cup finals players like Dan Petrescu types publicly campaigning for the CMNT job:- http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/internationals/8402689.stm Beyond that I suspect Paul James overstates the influence of this messageboard somewhat relative to the opinion of the more experienced CMNT players. This appointment is just another example of what is wrong with the CSA, in my opinion. More to do with internal old boys club type politics than a burning desire to achieve success. The reason this messageboard goes along meekly with an appointment like this is probably that most Canadian soccer fans long ago turned away in disgust and tuned this stuff out for the most part so it's a bit like the Lynx fan base 5 years ago relative to the latent support that could be attracted if a more professionally run operation (think TFC) arrived on the scene. I'm not saying Hart is the right man but he's been chosen as the next manager by the CSA so let's support him. And I think you're being harsh on the V's on this board who haven't tuned this stuff out. As for the Scottish manager position, I agree we don't have the same quality of people available (not even close). But Walter Smith, Alex McLeish and George Burley have done it and gone; Dan Petrescu has done an admirable job at Unirea but would he have even been talked about if they hadn't turned over an ordinary Rangers side in the CL? Who else? Craig Levein isn't leaving Dundee Utd, in my opinion. None of the Premier League managers would leave their job for Scotland and sorry, names like Souness and Dalglish are yesterday's men. So the SFA have a greater choice available but their challenge of finding someone isn't that much different from the CSA's. They just have a lot more people likely to say no thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ref Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 What bothers me from people like Paul James who hold themselves to know everything is that they tend to simplify problems to just a choice of foreign versus local coaches, such as is the case of our National team. One could argue that on average foreign coaches have greater success. But that may be due to better programs and better players and the fact that they may be foreign for the country they coach is just a coincidence brought about by availability and a credence that if it is imported is better. To me what one should look at from a coach, foreign or domestic, is for a plan of action, short and long term. As to how will they specifically tackle the problem at hand, that is to build a team strong enough to not only qualify for the next WC, but have some degree of success even beyond that. There are over 200 countries who try to qualify every 4 years, that is over 200 coaches, but only 31 make it. I don't know how many of the 170 coaches who don't make it are foreign or domestic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Nice closer; The gulf between Gold Cup games and World Cup qualifiers in terms of pressure, intensity and maturity is a big one. A nice-guy approach with tactical smarts will serve him well until the point when the money is on the line. Without an edgy approach that comes from an edgy personality it is difficult to fathom how a well-liked nice guy like Stephen Hart will get blood out of a stone from the group of players he selects to get the job done. Interesting philosophy. Maybe not putting it in quite the terms he should but the broad meaning comes through. Can't say as I agree though. Not strongly disagreeing either. It's just that it's too blanket an expectation and too dismissive of real world accomplishment. There hasn't yet been discovered the one true mold which will lead all teams to success, and there is no denying that it is the small successes you build on to achieve greater success. Seems to me Martin O'Neil has done wonderfully for himself and has a dresser drawer full of Winners Medals to prove it. It's a rare day when you can criticize one of his squads of being anything but committed and intense or of underachieving. It's a rarer day when anyone would describe Mr O'Neil as having an "edgy personality" or coaching style. Just one example of many of a players manager enjoying great success. Yea to recruiting outside the "inner circle" for a fresh set of professional & experienced eyes to look at your program. Especially if you can provide those eyes the tools they need. A waste of everyone's time if you can't... Nay to dismissing the qualities of the in-house staff. There are times when promoting from within is the right answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 You must be joking about Martin O'Neil not having an edgy personality. He was borderline psychotic during postgame interviews at some points when he was at Celtic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Eh? If critical & plain spoken are psychotic I'll surrender you the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 quote:Originally posted by bettermirror Our youth teams are doomed to failure so long as the NTC's selection/scouting process is run the way it is (at least in BC). BINGO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Cheeta Eh? If critical & plain spoken are psychotic I'll surrender you the field. The late Tommy Burns was much more mellow in that job, which may be an indication of why his career as a manager didn't progress as much as Martin O'Neil's, if Paul James' theory is correct. The idea that you can judge what somebody is like in the dressing room from their TV persona is somewhat dubious though, in my opinion. In a Scottish context, Walter Smith is usually relatively calm and restrained in interviews but is usually described as being a very fiery character when away from the camera by ex-players as in this clip that never made it onto Scottish TV screens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nedved9 Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 If Canada wants to improve in The game of Soccer we have to improve in the youths levels U16, U19, U21, That means more pro teams in Canada, I think we are slowly heading into the right direction with teams like TFC, Montreal Impact. Vancouver Whitecaps, Being joined by teams in Ottawa, Edmonton, London, and I think Hamilton in a few short years, Who knows this might lead to franchises in Calgary , Halifax, Victoria, maybe Quebec City, and maybe we should employ forien coachs to help out. Maybe 2014 will be a possibilty. On a complete separate note I watched the World Cup Draw on Friday and I thinking to myself wouldn't been nice to Hear the Word Canada coming from the lips of Charlize Therion or Jerome Valke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masster Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 quote:Originally posted by VPjr BINGO For those of us not ingrained in our local/provincial soccer communities, could somebody please expand on this. We often get statements such as these on this board but then nobody explains why, thus leaving myself and many others who want to know, in the dark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 quote:Originally posted by nedved9 If Canada wants to improve in The game of Soccer we have to improve in the youths levels U16, U19, U21, That means more pro teams in Canada, I think we are slowly heading into the right direction with teams like TFC, Montreal Impact. Vancouver Whitecaps, Being joined by teams in Ottawa, Edmonton, London, and I think Hamilton in a few short years, Who knows this might lead to franchises in Calgary , Halifax, Victoria, maybe Quebec City, and maybe we should employ forien coachs to help out. Maybe 2014 will be a possibilty. And you want all these Canadian clubs playing in an american league? I couldn't stomach that, sorry. I just wish for the day when the CSA will finally behave like a leader and organize all these prospective professional organizations into a fully Canadian professional league. I agree the problem here is the youth level, but it's not their fault, they are not being taught the right way. The lack of knowledgeable coaches it's the biggest problem in our country right now. The coaching system is ridiculous (both provincial and national) courses are being taught by amateurs who never coach anywhere and they're usually in charge of in between 20 to 25 prospective coaches. How can we ever improve if amateurs are being taught by amateurs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ref Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Eric And you want all these Canadian clubs playing in an american league? I couldn't stomach that, sorry. I just wish for the day when the CSA will finally behave like a leader and organize all these prospective professional organizations into a fully Canadian professional league. I agree the problem here is the youth level, but it's not their fault, they are not being taught the right way. The lack of knowledgeable coaches it's the biggest problem in our country right now. The coaching system is ridiculous (both provincial and national) courses are being taught by amateurs who never coach anywhere and they're usually in charge of in between 20 to 25 prospective coaches. How can we ever improve if amateurs are being taught by amateurs? Ain't that a sad truth. We qualify coaches for community senior soccer with just a weekend course where the only thing you need to do is just show-up. One could say that players are as good as the coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ed Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 I find it quite ironic that PJ dismisses Hart's popularity with the players and stresses that the bottom line is getting the best out of the team. This from the cat who has to be right at the top of the list of national team coaches most despised by his players. He sure got a lot out of them in Argentina right?? I think he was just looking for an excuse to plug 'soccernomics' or whatever the book du jour was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 quote:Originally posted by masster For those of us not ingrained in our local/provincial soccer communities, could somebody please expand on this. We often get statements such as these on this board but then nobody explains why, thus leaving myself and many others who want to know, in the dark. masser, did you know that Carolina Morace was the first national team coach that started looking everywhere for potential talent outside the provincial and national system? before her, players that were not going through (and at one time PAY to be in the provincial program) the provincial programs where never given a chance to be part of a national team? many good players were told that if they were not in their respective provincial program they could not be consider for a camp. So basically the so called "scouting" of prospective national team players was only being done at the NTC's, anybody who was not part of that, were never given a chance. That order came from above, so coaches found their hands tied about who they allow to look at. With Morace coming from a system where looking for talent everywhere is the key for success, things change on her end. She starting asking around and networking with everybody who could give her some info about good players anywhere they were. So she called a few girls who were never part of the provincial and national programs before even though they were already over 18 years of age. So basically masser, a foreigner coach who didn't care about the status quo, had to come to Canada and show the amateur bureaucrats that we have in place, that things are done differently around the world, if you really want to find the best talent in your country, you should put the politics aside and talk to everybody, because you never know where the next gem might be. I hope that answer your question, if not, hopefully somebody else will add to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ref Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Eric masser, did you know that Carolina Morace was the first national team coach that started looking everywhere for potential talent outside the provincial and national system? before her, players that were not going through (and at one time PAY to be in the provincial program) the provincial programs where never given a chance to be part of a national team? many good players were told that if they were not in their respective provincial program they could not be consider for a camp. So basically the so called "scouting" of prospective national team players was only being done at the NTC's, anybody who was not part of that, were never given a chance. That order came from above, so coaches found their hands tied about who they allow to look at. Did you know that the player requirement for eligibility for a national squad to be part of a NTC was enacted by Holger Osieck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 quote:Originally posted by The Ref Ain't that a sad truth. We qualify coaches for community senior soccer with just a weekend course where the only thing you need to do is just show-up. One could say that players are as good as the coach. The saddest part of all, is that the CSA is handing out A licenses to coaches who never coached past U-17s and were never exposed to senior soccer in their lives, when an A license anywhere in the world (other then NA, Australia, New Zealand and the British Isles) is consider the level where only the serious professional prospects should get in, and where only the coaches who are already coaching or want to get into senior soccer can take part of. All other youth coaches are usually granted YOUTH licenses to coach youths only, but here it's all about the revenue and never about the quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 quote:Originally posted by The Ref Did you know that the player requirement for eligibility for a national squad to be part of a NTC was enacted by Holger Osieck. No, it wasn't, it was in place way before Holger Osieck came to Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Maybe this is nitpicking, but the NTC's didn't exist before Holger. Pretty sure it was only the provincial all-star team programs that were in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ref Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 I was sitting across the table from Holger at a luncheon meeting where this was discussed and the letter he got the CSA to write about players needing to be part of Regional or National training centres. I think it was his initiative, but maybe I could be wrong. I believe there was no such requirement before his time. I don't have the date handy but it was early in Holger's tenure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ed Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Are you talking about BC only? Or was this only for players not associated with clubs. You're missing some facts there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 quote:Originally posted by jpg75 Maybe this is nitpicking, but the NTC's didn't exist before Holger. Pretty sure it was only the provincial all-star team programs that were in place. Yes, the name National Training Centre was born during Holgar's tenure, but the concept about players who were not part of the provincial teams not being eligible for national teams tryouts or camps, was in place way before Holgar's tenure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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