Carver resigns

[VPjr]

JC just did a lengthy phone interview on the Fan590 in Toronto.

Nothing earthshattering was said. Hightlites:

- He became convinced that he could not be "himself" without hurting the team

- he became convinced that some refs were essentially out to get him

- Fed up with meddling from MLS offices

- He says he made the decision to change formations to 4-2-3-1 prior to Wednesday's game and was in complete control but MLS threatened to fine him if he did not return to the technical area on Sunday.

- he is saying he does not have a job lined up back in England and that he has a difficult time imagining getting involved with Newcastle if they are not up in the Premiership.

There was a bunch more and I'm sure the interview will be posted on Fan590's website shortly...in fact, here it is: http://www.fan590.com/media.jsp?content=20090428_132723_7348

As i've mentioned in the past, I like JC's passion although I've had LOTS of concerns with his game management.

However, what is most striking is that, while he claims he is a man of integrity and principle, really, it seems like he was a man who could not control his emotions well enough to be the head man of a football club. So many coaches have told me that, even though you might vehemently disagree with a ref's decision, if you call them out publicly you are generally only hurting your team, not helping. Human nature generally dictates that the refs will get back at you, somehow.

I wish JC well but it has become quite clear (to me at least) that the man is far too emotional/volatile for his own good or the good of his club.

I agree with Grizzly...JC was too negative and came across as hyper critical.

He just doesn't seem capable of handling the pressure. I'm not convinced he really made the mental transition to coaching a team in MLS. BBTB makes a very good point as well...other Brits/Scots have made the transition pretty seamlessly but John apparently "had too much integrity"....it strikes me as John not having that "it" factor that seperates the managers from the trainers.

[youllneverwalkalone]

^Yeah, I don't understand this whole episode as Carver now explains it. The FA is just as quick to dole out a fine or a touchline ban. It literally happens all the time.

Seems to me he was having a difficult time handling the pressure of management and has quit. Simple as that.

[ag futbol]

He says he made the decision to change formations to 4-2-3-1 prior to Wednesday's game and was in complete control but MLS threatened to fine him if he did not return to the technical area on Sunday.

[canadianfoot]

How much was Carver making anyway? 200-300k(CDN$) a year? Plus incentive if TFC make they playoffs? Laurent Roussey is without a job we might get him on the cheap for 100k..lol....

[Cheeta]

quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

^Yeah, I don't understand this whole episode as Carver now explains it. The FA is just as quick to dole out a fine or a touchline ban. It literally happens all the time.

Seems to me he was having a difficult time handling the pressure of management and has quit. Simple as that.

Youch.

Maybe. But then again maybe he's not communicating as well as he'd like. His logic is getting lost in the translation (as it were). I think this latest incident is nothing more than that final straw which broke the camel's back.

I think he just got too much of an eye-full of MLS to continue to take the job seriously (and by MLS I include the TFC franchise) and decided to quite the enterprise. Thanks, some of it has been fun but it's not my sort of football world.

Which should be fair enough. Coaches/Managers quite everyday in every UEFA league because they feel they're spinning their wheels. Winning coaches, losing coaches. Doesn't matter. If they feel their craft and their time is being wasted they move on.

Serious football men aren't coming to MLS and staying (see Beckham, Carver and any of the younger players with any sort of potential). The reasons for this are numerous but the reality remains. Serious, competitive football people aren't staying with MLS.

MoJo seems pretty comfy though....

MLS HQ may not be unhappy to see Carver go, but Carver's voice just adds more authority to the already dismissive chorus that slams MLS every day in Europe & North America. Not something you want if you can avoid it. Especially after the Beckham fiasco.

P.S. I have to include the disclaimer that I completely agree that Carver, while maybe a useful tool as PART of a coaching TEAM, may be out of his element as THE manager. Not saying he couldn't grow into the role given time, especially with the players you'd find in a league like MLS, I'm just saying there are things about his management style which are disconcerting.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

Serious football men aren't coming to MLS and staying (see Beckham, Carver and any of the younger players with any sort of potential). The reasons for this are numerous but the reality remains. Serious, competitive football people aren't staying with MLS.

MoJo seems pretty comfy though....

Farcical stuff, in my opinion, although I see you are not alone in this type of thinking judging by what is being posted by a vocal minority on the RPB board. The Andy Welsh appreciation cult of season one turned into hero worship of John Carver last season culminating in the "In Carver We Trust" banner. Many people appear to know absolutely nothing about the sport beyond the Premiership era in England from the mid-90s onwards either because they are too young to remember anything else or have had no significant access or exposure to other leagues. Anyone with a marginal connection to the Premiership seems to be seen as being some sort of legendary soccer figure who must be way better than anything MLS has to offer even when their performance in an MLS context strongly suggests otherwise.

In reality, John Carver is very much a B List celebrity in British football terms. His playing career lasted about five minutes due to an unfortunate injury, so his main claim to fame is being Sir Bobby Robson's assistant at Newcastle United, in the Premiership, which may have been a glorified gopher role for all we know. In contrast, Steve Nicol at the New England Revolution won a European Cup winner's medal (the forerunner to the Champions League) with Liverpool and was on Scotland's 1986 World Cup squad back when Scotland actually had a good team. There is much more reason to view somebody like Steve Nicol as a serious soccer person than a relatively marginal figure within the game like John Carver and he seems to be able to cope with MLS officiating just fine and has stayed with the Revolution since 2002.

At the end of a difficult first season the TFC head coach job was far from attractive for anybody whose career was heading in the right direction because the probability of failure was too high. That meant finding a B List celebrity type to replace Bob Gansler and hoping for the best was probably going to be the order of the day. John Carver was probably never going to get to manage a team in England because he did nothing as a player and there is a strong "show us your medals" mentality there when it comes to having the respect of professional level players there so after leaving an assistant manager job at Luton coming to MLS in less than ideal circumstances was his best bet to finally build a resume in that regard given the UK media was paying attention with Beckham on board. In the end it didn't work. His postgame press conference antics last season were an embarrassment that would not have been tolerated at most British clubs. He probably should have been fired after the failure to win the Canadian Championship and the farcical stuff about a winning team starting the next game but the powers that be at MLSE probably didn't want to be seen as being too trigger happy where coaches are concerned so it dragged on until now.

Eighteen months on with most of the pieces in place in roster terms to make a strong impact in the playoffs, if injuries and suspensions don't pile up, it actually might be possible to attract a coach with a good pedigree in the game and a career that is going in the right direction (i.e. like the Revolution appointing Steve Nicol or the Earthquakes appointing Frank Yallop), given the probability of achieving success is now much higher. I hope they don't hand it to Chris Cummins too easily. He needs to prove the last two games weren't just a flash in the pan and he shouldn't be allowed to screw up a promising season if things start to turn sour. A month to six weeks on an interim basis should buy the time needed to get somebody good lined up as the plan B if things don't work out with Cummins.

[Cheeta]

^ Oh, I'm quite sure Steve Nicol gets lots of respect for his playing career, and so does Mo Johnson but neither man joined the NA leagues until their European value became negligible as age caught up with them. Does Steve Nicol get a lot of love for his managerial success with DC? Don't know. MLS will tell you he does but their PR people say a lot of things...

Nicol looks pretty comfortable in his USA life, but he's beginning to build a managerial record which might take him onto other, bigger challenges than operating as the coach of a franchise with a $2M (million pound and change?) player budget/cap where every player movement/signing has to get league HQ stamp of approval.

And there's the thing, even if he was interested in moving on to bigger and better opportunities he may find he's going to have a hard time showing his coaching record in as positive a light as possible to potential overseas employers simply because the experiences he's gained as an MLS manager may not help him one twig in the real world of serious competitive football. So if you're still serious about becoming a top league coach, why bother with MLS?

Same as trying to parley your years of success at St. Mirren into an EPL gig. But at least your years at St. Mirren exposed you to the realities of the competitive player market.

Farcical or not, I stand by my opinion. No disrespect to the league it is what it is out of real and perceived necessity. But that makes it a very unique environment in the Western footballing world. Too insular a place in this high pressure cut-throat business.

P.S. I think Nicol, Schmid and probably Arena have potential to go beyond MLS, but guys like Carver bad mouthing numerous aspects of the league aren't going to help them do it.

[ottawaguy2009]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

Farcical stuff, in my opinion, although I see you are not alone in this type of thinking judging by what is being posted by a vocal minority on the RPB board. The Andy Welsh appreciation cult of season one turned into hero worship of John Carver last season culminating in the "In Carver We Trust" banner. Many people appear to know absolutely nothing about the sport beyond the Premiership era in England from the mid-90s onwards either because they are too young to remember anything else or have had no significant access or exposure to other leagues. Anyone with a marginal connection to the Premiership seems to be seen as being some sort of legendary soccer figure who must be way better than anything MLS has to offer even when their performance in an MLS context strongly suggests otherwise.

In reality, John Carver is very much a B List celebrity in British football terms. His playing career lasted about five minutes due to an unfortunate injury, so his main claim to fame is being Sir Bobby Robson's assistant at Newcastle United, in the Premiership, which may have been a glorified gopher role for all we know. In contrast, Steve Nicol at the New England Revolution won a European Cup winner's medal (the forerunner to the Champions League) with Liverpool and was on Scotland's 1986 World Cup squad back when Scotland actually had a good team. There is much more reason to view somebody like Steve Nicol as a serious soccer person than a relatively marginal figure within the game like John Carver and he seems to be able to cope with MLS officiating just fine and has stayed with the Revolution since 2002.

At the end of a difficult first season the TFC head coach job was far from attractive for anybody whose career was heading in the right direction because the probability of failure was too high. That meant finding a B List celebrity type to replace Bob Gansler and hoping for the best was probably going to be the order of the day. John Carver was probably never going to get to manage a team in England because he did nothing as a player and there is a strong "show us your medals" mentality there when it comes to having the respect of professional level players there so after leaving an assistant manager job at Luton coming to MLS in less than ideal circumstances was his best bet to finally build a resume in that regard given the UK media was paying attention with Beckham on board. In the end it didn't work. His postgame press conference antics last season were an embarrassment that would not have been tolerated at most British clubs. He probably should have been fired after the failure to win the Canadian Championship and the farcical stuff about a winning team starting the next game but the powers that be at MLSE probably didn't want to be seen as being too trigger happy where coaches are concerned so it dragged on until now.

Eighteen months on with most of the pieces in place in roster terms to make a strong impact in the playoffs, if injuries and suspensions don't pile up, it actually might be possible to attract a coach with a good pedigree in the game and a career that is going in the right direction (i.e. like the Revolution appointing Steve Nicol or the Earthquakes appointing Frank Yallop), given the probability of achieving success is now much higher. I hope they don't hand it to Chris Cummins too easily. He needs to prove the last two games weren't just a flash in the pan and he shouldn't be allowed to screw up a promising season if things start to turn sour. A month to six weeks on an interim basis should buy the time needed to get somebody good lined up as the plan B if things don't work out with Cummins.

Well said. Moreover, Carver's extreme "passion", to me, was merely a cover for his lack of expertise. Those coaches who actually know what they are doing don't need to call out the league and belligerate the officials. They are content to sit on the sidelines because their squad performs well, and scores enough goals, that regardless of poor officiating, results in their winning.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Perhaps worth bearing in mind, Cheeta, that Tony Taylor and Colin Miller were both able to get jobs at reasonably big clubs in England even after being involved in Canadian soccer. It's all a question of who you know a lot of the time. Given the likes of Johnston, Nicol, Mariner, Clarke and Spencer are far bigger names than Taylor and Miller and know plenty of people as well from their playing days in the UK I seriously doubt that they'd be hanging around if MLS were as bad as John Carver makes out.

[squizz1402635577]

quote:Originally posted by ottawaguy2009

Those coaches who actually know what they are doing don't need to call out the league and belligerate the officials. They are content to sit on the sidelines because their squad performs well, and scores enough goals, that regardless of poor officiating, results in their winning.

I don't know if that's a real word or not, but I know what it means, and I like it!

[Guest Ed]

quote:Originally posted by TFC07

Interesting. I wonder who this interim is going to be?

BTW, good to know that Winsper is staying.

Yes. We all know how important a fitness coach is to an organization!! Hail Mighty Paul!!!

Great to see Nic Dasovic take on more with the team.

And another illiterate joins in with a blog. Might pique the interest of those faithful members of the church of Carver.

http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/john-carver-the-whiny-quitter/3248/comment-page-1/

[Eric]

It's funny to see how a foreigner youth coach gets the job and the Canadian with more playing experience and national team experience with seniors, has to sit back and wait again when he's more deserving of the job.

Well....as long as Mo and Barry are still there, the brit coaching syndrome will still blind the TFC management.

[squizz1402635577]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

And another illiterate joins in with a blog. Might pique the interest of those faithful members of the church of Carver.

http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/john-carver-the-whiny-quitter/3248/comment-page-1/

Someone oughta teach that kid how to use a comma. And how to appropriately use an ampersand. And that using capital letters and exclamation points is not how to make an effective argument.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by Eric

It's funny to see how a foreigner youth coach gets the job and the Canadian with more playing experience and national team experience with seniors, has to sit back and wait again when he's more deserving of the job.

I believe Cummins has more actual coaching experience, which you seem to have forgotten about when listing relevant experience.

I'm willing to give him a chance.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

And another illiterate joins in with a blog. Might pique the interest of those faithful members of the church of Carver.

http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/john-carver-the-whiny-quitter/3248/comment-page-1/

That was so painful, I only read the first sentence.

[teddym]

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

^ Does Steve Nicol get a lot of love for his managerial success with DC?

I hope not since he was never at DC. (DC . . . New England, what's the diff? It's only MLS.)

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

P.S. I think Nicol, Schmid and probably Arena have potential to go beyond MLS, but guys like Carver bad mouthing numerous aspects of the league aren't going to help them do it.

Nah. That's feeble--think the phrase is 'grabbing at straws'. Everybody knows there are lots of things wrong with MLS. (It's a young league, what would you expect?) Besides, anybody who'd listen to Carver knows what he's like. Would you buy a used grievance from him?

[ag futbol]

Ok let's run down this MLS "respect" thing top to bottom:

1) Nobody can really "damage" the reputation of MLS in europe because it was pretty close to zero in the first place. Having a Euro passport just gives you better options for those who might actually fit well into this league. Now there will be exceptions (Dichio, Robinson, John Cunliffe who played for Chivas) but otherwise it's never happening in any big way.

2) The places where the reputation of the league does matter (ie the real feeders, not europe) it's making progress. Players like Scholetto and Gallardo playing here has had a trickle down effect where someone like Pablo Vitti feels more confortable making a move to MLS than he otherwise would.

3) most people recognize that economically it's on the rise (relatively!). CBA is up next year, last time it was signed this ship was nearly sunk, now it's sailing. Expect a modest increase in the cap which should allow for more "profesional grade" players top to bottom. The top earners won't get much more, but expect a lot less guys earning 50k or rediculous D-roster pay.

Won't exactly put us on par with any major (or even 2nd tier leagues in europe). But expect less stupid things happening like servicable players going elsewhere simply for a little more money to stop. Also job security should be getting better (most players have non-gauranteed deals that can be cut on a whim).

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by ag futbol

[brWon't exactly put us on par with any major (or even 2nd tier leagues in europe).....

I often wonder whether people who write this sort of stuff have ever actually watched 2nd tier leagues in Europe (which I assume means top divisions from about 7 to 30 on the UEFA coefficients list) to any significant extent. Personally think MLS stacks up very well in quality terms against the SPL in Scotland if you ignore the two obvious outliers i.e. Rangers and Celtic.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Eric

It's funny to see how a foreigner youth coach gets the job and the Canadian with more playing experience and national team experience with seniors, has to sit back and wait again when he's more deserving of the job.

You have a point but Mo Johnston was careful to say that both would be considered, which was his way of according Nick Dasovic the respect he deserves based on his greatly superior playing career (a large portion of which was in Scotland, for what it's worth). Would have been very awkward for it not to be Chris Cummins after he was the head honcho on the bench in the last two games.

[Eric]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

Personally think MLS stacks up very well in quality terms against the SPL in Scotland if you ignore the two obvious outliers i.e. Rangers and Celtic.

I though ag futbol said any major (or even 2nd tier leagues in europe) I didn't know the Scottish leagues were among the mayor leagues in Europe!

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Obvious flame-bait. Here's the list of UEFA coefficents so people can judge for themselves:-

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method4/crank2009.html

1 England 15.571 14.428 16.625 17.875 14.555 79.054 3/ 9

2 Spain 12.437 15.642 19.000 13.875 12.812 73.766 1/ 8

3 Italy 14.000 15.357 11.928 10.250 11.375 62.910 8

4 Germany 10.571 10.437 9.500 13.500 12.062 56.070 2/ 8

5 France 11.428 10.812 10.000 6.928 11.000 50.168 7

6 Russia 10.000 10.000 6.625 11.250 9.750 47.625 4

7 Ukraine 8.100 5.750 6.500 4.875 14.875 40.100 2/ 4

8 Netherlands 12.000 7.583 8.214 5.000 6.333 39.130 6

9 Romania 5.500 16.833 11.333 2.600 2.642 38.908 7

10 Portugal 8.166 5.500 8.083 7.928 6.785 36.462 7

11 Turkey 5.375 4.000 6.100 9.750 7.000 32.225 4

12 Greece 6.166 3.333 4.666 7.500 6.500 28.165 4

13 Scotland 4.750 4.250 6.750 10.250 1.875 27.875 4

14 Belgium 6.125 5.500 4.700 4.500 4.500 25.325 4

15 Switzerland 2.625 9.375 4.100 6.250 2.900 25.250 5

16 Denmark 1.500 3.500 6.125 5.125 8.200 24.450 5

17 Bulgaria 2.375 8.750 5.125 2.750 2.250 21.250 4

18 Czech Republic 2.875 4.625 5.750 5.125 2.375 20.750 4

19 Norway 3.500 5.400 2.000 5.400 2.500 18.800 5

20 Austria 7.625 3.250 1.500 3.200 2.250 17.825 4

21 Serbia 4.250 3.250 2.125 2.625 3.000 15.250 4

22 Israel 3.625 1.500 6.000 2.375 1.750 15.250 4

23 Cyprus 1.333 3.000 1.750 2.666 6.333 15.082 3

24 Sweden 3.000 2.666 1.125 5.400 2.500 14.691 4

25 Slovakia 1.333 4.333 2.000 2.166 4.833 14.665 3

26 Poland 2.500 1.125 2.625 1.666 5.000 12.916 3

27 Croatia 3.000 0.333 1.000 3.666 4.333 12.332 3

28 Finland 1.666 2.333 1.333 2.625 1.833 9.790 3

29 Lithuania 2.500 1.333 1.833 1.500 2.500 9.666 3

30 Ireland 1.333 1.833 2.833 1.000 2.500 9.499 3

31 Latvia 3.166 1.333 2.166 1.333 1.166 9.164 3

32 Slovenia 3.500 2.333 1.250 0.666 1.333 9.082 3

33 Belarus 0.500 1.333 1.000 1.833 4.000 8.666 3

34 Bosnia-Herzegovina 1.666 1.500 1.833 1.833 1.833 8.665 3

35 Hungary 4.166 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 8.166 3

36 Iceland 2.500 0.833 1.000 1.166 1.166 6.665 3

37 Moldova 1.500 1.666 1.500 1.333 0.666 6.665 3

38 Georgia 2.666 0.666 1.166 1.000 1.166 6.664 3

39 Liechtenstein 2.000 1.000 2.000 0.500 0.000 5.500 1

40 Macedonia 0.333 1.500 1.166 1.666 0.500 5.165 3

41 Azerbaijan 0.500 1.333 1.333 0.666 0.666 4.498 3

42 Estonia 0.833 0.833 1.500 0.833 0.333 4.332 3

43 Albania 1.000 1.000 0.833 0.500 0.666 3.999 3

44 Kazakhstan 0.000 1.000 0.666 0.750 0.833 3.249 3

45 Armenia 0.500 0.666 0.500 1.333 0.000 2.999 3

46 Wales 0.000 0.666 0.666 0.666 0.333 2.331 3

47 Northern Ireland 0.666 0.500 0.166 0.500 0.333 2.165 3

48 Faroe Islands 0.333 0.666 0.500 0.333 0.333 2.165 3

49 Luxembourg 0.333 0.500 0.166 0.333 0.000 1.332 3

50 Montenegro 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.500 0.500 1.000 3

51 Andorra 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.500 0.000 0.500 2

52 Malta 0.333 0.000 0.166 0.000 0.000 0.499 3

53 San Marino 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.250 0.000 0.250 2

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

I often wonder whether people who write this sort of stuff have ever actually watched 2nd tier leagues in Europe (which I assume means top divisions from about 7 to 30 on the UEFA coefficients list) to any significant extent. Personally think MLS stacks up very well in quality terms against the SPL in Scotland if you ignore the two obvious outliers i.e. Rangers and Celtic.

Yes this is one of the rare occasions when we agree on something BBTB. Having seen a large number of Euro leagues, MLS is obviously not on par with the top leagues but it is certainly comparable to a lot of 2nd tier leagues. What it lacks compared to these leagues is squad depth and quality throughout the roster. However, this will be solved if the minimum salary is raised to $50000 as the other poster suggested. Most of the players in comparable 2nd tier Euro leagues would be earning more but MLS can get a similar quality of player due to the fact most of its potential player pool does not hold Euro passports and Euro teams are mostly interested in players superior not equivalent to their own.

[Eric]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

Obvious flame-bait. Here's the list of UEFA coefficents so people can judge for themselves:-

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method4/crank2009.html

1 England 15.571 14.428 16.625 17.875 14.555 79.054 3/ 9

2 Spain 12.437 15.642 19.000 13.875 12.812 73.766 1/ 8

3 Italy 14.000 15.357 11.928 10.250 11.375 62.910 8

4 Germany 10.571 10.437 9.500 13.500 12.062 56.070 2/ 8

5 France 11.428 10.812 10.000 6.928 11.000 50.168 7

6 Russia 10.000 10.000 6.625 11.250 9.750 47.625 4

7 Ukraine 8.100 5.750 6.500 4.875 14.875 40.100 2/ 4

8 Netherlands 12.000 7.583 8.214 5.000 6.333 39.130 6

9 Romania 5.500 16.833 11.333 2.600 2.642 38.908 7

10 Portugal 8.166 5.500 8.083 7.928 6.785 36.462 7

11 Turkey 5.375 4.000 6.100 9.750 7.000 32.225 4

12 Greece 6.166 3.333 4.666 7.500 6.500 28.165 4

13 Scotland 4.750 4.250 6.750 10.250 1.875 27.875 4

14 Belgium 6.125 5.500 4.700 4.500 4.500 25.325 4

15 Switzerland 2.625 9.375 4.100 6.250 2.900 25.250 5

16 Denmark 1.500 3.500 6.125 5.125 8.200 24.450 5

17 Bulgaria 2.375 8.750 5.125 2.750 2.250 21.250 4

18 Czech Republic 2.875 4.625 5.750 5.125 2.375 20.750 4

19 Norway 3.500 5.400 2.000 5.400 2.500 18.800 5

20 Austria 7.625 3.250 1.500 3.200 2.250 17.825 4

21 Serbia 4.250 3.250 2.125 2.625 3.000 15.250 4

22 Israel 3.625 1.500 6.000 2.375 1.750 15.250 4

23 Cyprus 1.333 3.000 1.750 2.666 6.333 15.082 3

24 Sweden 3.000 2.666 1.125 5.400 2.500 14.691 4

25 Slovakia 1.333 4.333 2.000 2.166 4.833 14.665 3

26 Poland 2.500 1.125 2.625 1.666 5.000 12.916 3

27 Croatia 3.000 0.333 1.000 3.666 4.333 12.332 3

28 Finland 1.666 2.333 1.333 2.625 1.833 9.790 3

29 Lithuania 2.500 1.333 1.833 1.500 2.500 9.666 3

30 Ireland 1.333 1.833 2.833 1.000 2.500 9.499 3

31 Latvia 3.166 1.333 2.166 1.333 1.166 9.164 3

32 Slovenia 3.500 2.333 1.250 0.666 1.333 9.082 3

33 Belarus 0.500 1.333 1.000 1.833 4.000 8.666 3

34 Bosnia-Herzegovina 1.666 1.500 1.833 1.833 1.833 8.665 3

35 Hungary 4.166 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 8.166 3

36 Iceland 2.500 0.833 1.000 1.166 1.166 6.665 3

37 Moldova 1.500 1.666 1.500 1.333 0.666 6.665 3

38 Georgia 2.666 0.666 1.166 1.000 1.166 6.664 3

39 Liechtenstein 2.000 1.000 2.000 0.500 0.000 5.500 1

40 Macedonia 0.333 1.500 1.166 1.666 0.500 5.165 3

41 Azerbaijan 0.500 1.333 1.333 0.666 0.666 4.498 3

42 Estonia 0.833 0.833 1.500 0.833 0.333 4.332 3

43 Albania 1.000 1.000 0.833 0.500 0.666 3.999 3

44 Kazakhstan 0.000 1.000 0.666 0.750 0.833 3.249 3

45 Armenia 0.500 0.666 0.500 1.333 0.000 2.999 3

46 Wales 0.000 0.666 0.666 0.666 0.333 2.331 3

47 Northern Ireland 0.666 0.500 0.166 0.500 0.333 2.165 3

48 Faroe Islands 0.333 0.666 0.500 0.333 0.333 2.165 3

49 Luxembourg 0.333 0.500 0.166 0.333 0.000 1.332 3

50 Montenegro 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.500 0.500 1.000 3

51 Andorra 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.500 0.000 0.500 2

52 Malta 0.333 0.000 0.166 0.000 0.000 0.499 3

53 San Marino 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.250 0.000 0.250 2

Ok, I stand corrected

[ag futbol]

Apologies for the "vague" definition of 2nd tier league. And no i definately did not mean 7-30, that's a pretty huge range don't you think? By that definition you'd be putting Netherlands and Romania in with Cyprus and Lithuania.

First tier (as it top quality) = 1-3 on the list

Second tier = 4-8

And for the sake of it, I don't think the new CBA would even put the MLS anywhere too significant. You could argue that the average MLS club is **around** the average SPL club but there are no comparisons at the top. Which i think would be an issue when you rank a lot of these league that have 2-3 teams that are a big step up from MLS, but there is a huge drop off after in the rest of the table.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by ag futbol

Apologies for the "vague" definition of 2nd tier league. And no i definately did not mean 7-30, that's a pretty huge range don't you think? By that definition you'd be putting Netherlands and Romania in with Cyprus and Lithuania.

First tier (as it top quality) = 1-3 on the list

Second tier = 4-8

And for the sake of it, I don't think the new CBA would even put the MLS anywhere too significant. You could argue that the average MLS club is **around** the average SPL club but there are no comparisons at the top. Which i think would be an issue when you rank a lot of these league that have 2-3 teams that are a big step up from MLS, but there is a huge drop off after in the rest of the table.

Sorry man but this is an attempt to change the argument parameters after you have lost the argument. Noone would define the first and second tiers the way you have done here. The exact numbers may change from person to person but the first tier would include at least the top 4 to 8 leagues with the second tier extending from that number to between the 15th or 20th top league. MLS would currently fit in pretty well somewhere between 10th and 20th if each team had all their best players on the field. Where they would struggle against some of these teams is with depth when they had injuries, suspensions or other reasons why certain players can't play. The lack of depth is also why MLS teams have been struggling lately against USL teams. If they raised the minimum salary to $50 000 that would no longer be an issue.