Post-match melee

[Guest speedmonk42]

All of what happened was, realistically very minor. And thankfully so.

I have seen worse fights at many CFL games.

But we have to address this somehow because we may not get lucky in the future.

[Guest speedmonk42]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

The only way to sort this out is to stage a good fight and force the CSAs hand. Stage a fight to force them separate the fans and isolate the visitors.

I know this sounds dumb, since all confrontation in the end hurts the fans, especially fans like us. But there has got to be a way to make the CSA understand how to set up the seating, and all I can think of it to threaten violence or stage it.

That would destroy us.

[littleD]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

The only way to sort this out is to stage a good fight and force the CSAs hand. Stage a fight to force them separate the fans and isolate the visitors.

I know this sounds dumb, since all confrontation in the end hurts the fans, especially fans like us. But there has got to be a way to make the CSA understand how to set up the seating, and all I can think of it to threaten violence or stage it.

Yeah great, let's go Italian Ultra style while we're at it. Maybe then we can put a strangle hold on Canadian soccer the way the Ultras do with the clubs over there.

That's exactly what I want.

Stupider comments have come up, but this one is near the top...

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

Why don't you go fuck yourself?

Rudi ..why do you think he was not at the game ? I suspect he still had a pot of Porridge to use in his left hand... what a geek, not at the party then shut your maw, yes most scottish man in Canada..... hell you ought to go to Glengary and let them see you call yourself that in the Atlantic Hotel... you wanker...

[Guest speedmonk42]

quote:Originally posted by Trillium

Rudi ..why do you think he was not at the game ? I suspect he still had a pot of Porridge to use in his left hand... what a geek, not at the party then shut your maw, yes most scottish man in Canada..... hell you ought to go to Glengary and let them see you call yourself that in the Atlantic Hotel... you wanker...

You need to read the whole thread, this was basically sorted.

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by Most Scottish Man in Cdn.

I'm not sure why you wasted any to begin with. I would have thought most people could get behind saying racism is wrong and violence is stupid.

As for our playground tussle "wasting any more words on me" sounds like you peaked with "go F yourself"...just saying...

If you change your mind though might I suggest insulting my mother or saying I don't know "s***" or something along those lines.

This is a forum for fans of Canadian soccer (which I have been since the early 80s) and it's pretty sad if you can't stand up for common sense and morality without being met with silence and/or hostility. Possibly my Green Street Hooligans comment was unkind but what the F*** is wrong with people (I'm pissed we lost too) that racist comments go by without outrage. No one said re "banana republics" or "rich americans deprived of their workers" "go f*** yourself". What the hell is wrong with us...

Your massively confused what is racist about being and illegal worker ... or a gardiner or cook or maid, its you who is casting the aura of racism the economic truth for the vast majourity of Hondurans in the United States is they work initially in service industrys... just like immigrants in this country did ... remember your ancestors most Scottish man... they went to the woods as clerks..in one room stores and married local girls... is saying that racist or simple a fact.. once again your not only a wanker but sad one... get some viagra hard man wannabe.

[theaub]

Dude settle down. We don't need this **** to start again.

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by speedmonk42

You need to read the whole thread, this was basically sorted.

Not sorted at all... and weak apolgies just dont count it.. hell, he cant even figure out using the term "Firm" as in the racist Celtic vs Rangers firms is a code word for religous and national intolerance, I might have cut him some slack if he applied the term Torcida to the hard cores in the Honduran crowd, but his contextual knowlege of soccer culture is sorely lacking.

When he can tell me who one the Highland league in 2000, I might respect is "scottishness".

[flubber]

I have to apologize for my off color remarks. As in most cases with such jokes in poor taste, just trying to reassure myself about my own inadequacies. Or in this case, the national team's. You can fall into a trap in thinking a group of supporters who make collecting their own urine and hurl said urine at the opposing team don't deserve to painted with racist insults. I think everyone, even those who manufacture and launch piss bombs, deserves the benefit of the doubt and to be afforded some dignity.

Seriously, it was a mistake. I fear I've poisoned the thread.

By the way, if you subsitute Scottish with either: Annoying, Self Righteous or Deluded, you've got the perfect moniker, Most Scottish Man In Canada. I, for one, am unfortunately crowned Most Racist.

[Guest speedmonk42]

quote:Originally posted by Trillium

Not sorted at all... and weak apolgies just dont count it.. hell, he cant even figure out using the term "Firm" as in the racist Celtic vs Rangers firms is a code word for religous and national intolerance, I might have cut him some slack if he applied the term Torcida to the hard cores in the Honduran crowd, but his contextual knowlege of soccer culture is sorely lacking.

When he can tell me who one the Highland league in 2000, I might respect is "scottishness".

Ok, maybe it is me that needs to read it again more closely.

Good to meet you on Saturday, too bad it was after the game. We will have to meet again in more ... happy times....

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Trillium

Not sorted at all... and weak apolgies just dont count it.. hell, he cant even figure out using the term "Firm" as in the racist Celtic vs Rangers firms is a code word for religous and national intolerance, I might have cut him some slack if he applied the term Torcida to the hard cores in the Honduran crowd, but his contextual knowlege of soccer culture is sorely lacking.

When he can tell me who one the Highland league in 2000, I might respect is "scottishness".

Keith, for what it's worth. The "Old Firm" refers to the fact that the two clubs feed off each other's identity to the detriment of other clubs and often do things together for their mutual benefit even though on the surface they appear to be enemies. The word "Firm" was more of an English thing in a hooligan context although some Rangers supporters did copy the use of the ICF name from West Ham at one point. In Scotland the groups were usually just referred to as "casuals". As for most Scottish Man's Scottishness I thought he was actually from Scotland based on some of the idiom he uses. In my experience, some Nova Scotians have retained some aspects of Scottish culture and are noticeably different that way from people from other parts of Canada although they often have some pretty weird ideas about it as well sometimes.

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by speedmonk42

Ok, maybe it is me that needs to read it again more closely.

Good to meet you on Saturday, too bad it was after the game. We will have to meet again in more ... happy times....

Hell I was happy .. you dont want to see me angry and depressed... the blonde behind the did bring smile to my face... as she danced the light fantastic...with the Toronto hard boy...

[Vic]

Having spent a night in a Catalan independence demonstration in Place Catalunya, I would think twice before ever pulling a Spanish flag out there, let alone after a local team loss...

[Most Scottish Man in Cdn.]

Thank you BringBackTheBlizzard...that's exactly how I meant it in the general British use. If I was going to refer to the Old Firm I would have said Old Firm but I was only talking about organised hooligans in general. The mob is also called the Firm in Britain by the way.

In a way I shouldn't be surprised that people have reacted as strongly as they have given this is the internet and there is basically no accountability and yet here I am still shaking my head.

It's amazing to me how calling out discriminatory comments (I'm sorry when you refer - especially with anger - to an entire ethnic group as gardeners and so on, even if many Hispanics in America do, do work like this, it is a prejudiced assumption...any reasonable person would agree with that, it's like saying all Italians are in the mob or all Chinese run launries) makes me a bad guy and having the nerve to use the word Scottish in my moniker makes me even worse (though I doubt it would if people agreed with me).

Other than my stupid Green Street comment I didn't bring any personal stuff into what I've said (though it got borderline when I'd been told to go F myself...surprise, surprise) and indeed even that comment wasn't directed at anyone in particular. And yet the absolute rage directed at me is clear. Wow.

I can't help note the irony in a number of people saying they were baited by Hondurans and yet on this thread the slightest disagreement sees fury. Is it possible if this was the kind of attitude some people had on the night that the actions of the Hondurans were misinterpreted? Possibly not but boys maybe you want to calm down a little bit.

[Soju]

^Who are you to lecture our supporters on how to behave? Cut the holier than thou sh1t out, especially if you weren't there. Our boys were drunk, angry and outnumbered in OUR stadium yes? How many people got stabbed? Shot? Killed? Oh some people got thrown around and punched what a damn shame. To come on this forum and tell Canadians they should mind their manners after that is a farce. Pack up your soccer mom routine and let the boys here relieve some tension.

As for the racist comments, where were you the other 500 times this issue's come up and we all jumped down the poster's throats? Not at your pc? Didn't see the thread? That's where all the rest of us were when the gardener comments were posted, and there are many here who have shouted out against that so many times that now they choose to just ignore it. I think you'll find on this board that the only genuine racists get run off after a week and never return because we are absolutely NOT bigots. If you don't want to believe that why don't you check out some old threads on this issue, or see the comments made in the women's forum. So instead of assuming everyone is an a$$hole, how about assuming everyone isn't and go about forming opinions from there.

[Pootz]

My take on the post match events

(I didn't read the whole thread its late but I wanted to add what I saw/know about it)

I was in row 1 right square behind the net at the final whistle (while shouting what the hell happened to 4 mins) I saw water bottles and beer being thrown into our section...and also Canadians returning the favour...

I saw a large group of Canadians move so I ran in to see what was up...I got right in front of the ruckus and was yelling to "not do anything inside the stadium meet them outside" (I remember I was right in front of Grizzly standing on a chair with my back to the Hondurans) I was hit with a beer but was surrounded by security. Overall the melee at the end of the game was a non incident compared to some of the scenes I have seen and been involved in...in fact in Europe or at an NFL game this would not even have been commented on by anyone.

I suspect the main thing that fueled this is that we were so outnumbered at home and after the show of support at BMO to have this kind of display was awful, add in the fact we lost a heartbreaker and were being provoked (we were provoking too) is what I think led to this.

Now I would also like to make a point that might not be popular and very well could make me look like a twat. I'm glad it happened. In fact I wish it got worse...before the match at the gates and after...now I will preface I do not want violence at the games or anyone hurt but I think its time other countries started to not feel so comfortable in our stadiums. I think its time the CSA started to realize that they need to segregate supporters and limit opposing tickets. It might not sound Canadian but we need to become an inhospitable nation to this teams and supporters. If a few melee's are what is needed to wake the CSA to what is up with the stadium situation then so be it.

Why is it that its ok for them (and every other country in fifa for that matter) to have a strong national support that is harsh to opposing teams but not ok for Canada? If only in football...I know we are the patron saint of nations but its time other teams feared coming to Canada.

[Most Scottish Man in Cdn.]

All right well this will be my last post on this thread (I can hear the cheers now) because a) there's no way I'll ever win and it's past ridiculous.

Soju if you've gotten the wrong end of the stick I apologise once more but I never told anyone how to behave only made a comment about what I considered to be a discriminatory remark. I then took a cheap shot which I shouldn't have and for which I have now repeatedly apologised. No one apologised for calling me a twat...and frankly that's okay with me I'm a big boy.

I've been a casuaul reader of this site on and off for a couple years but have only posted in the last few months and in any case read only a few of the threads so if you say this has happened before and people have been called out on it fair enough but in this case it had been several hours since certain comments I was responding to yesterday had been made and no one had said anything. I do understand that after awhile, and especially online, there's an element of "why bother" when someone says something discriminatory etc. but I have yet to reach that moment on this site (oh wait I just had it) so that might explain my being upset yesterday.

Anyway this isn't really about racism it's about a tight-knit and long established group of people taking offence at a relative newbie weighing in, in what seems like critical opposition. I get that believe me I do and obviously on the heels of our spirit-crushing loss the other night (especially for those who were there and experienced some aggro) my comments clearly didn't set well. That's all right. But there's a fine line between loving your own friends and team and country and putting down someone else's.

All right this twat's got to go pick up the kiddies at soccer practice, they're working on their PKs today...sorry couldn't resist...

[youllneverwalkalone]

My apologies to all for bumping this back in the rotation. I just wanted to add a few random thoughts:

I've always been a bit uncomfortable with patriotism, probably going back to my travels through Europe where you'd encounter Canadians who wanted to talk hockey, the Hip, and compare everything to home. I felt bad for the Swedish guy who got cornered and by a Canuck (often me to be fair) and made to talk about hockey, rather than football with the rest of the lads. And of course the ultimate conclusion we seek generally seek to that conversation is that we're the best and you should bow down.

I haven't admitted this, but I attended my first WCQ with a childhood friend from Guatemala. We sat right between the two sections and I did feel uncomfortable hearing the taunting of "You're going home to a third world country!" But my friend and his brothers couldn't care less, I assure you. They knew they were in the face of the home side and they completely deserved anything that came at them.

I've never really talked with this friend about the psyche of of the Central Americans who, not only come out to cheer for their native country- but feel the need to flaunt it in our face. I suspect the reason is that they have no respect for the game in Canada. Since they've come here, all they've heard about is hockey and curling and therefore many of them are likely surprised when they arrive at the match that we exist at all.

I'm sure some Englishman somewhere has drafted a much more eloquent sociological study on the attraction of males to yobbishness. All I can say is that it's an opportunity to be free from the daily grind and behave in a way that feels good. And, to my knowledge, nobody has ever been seriously hurt at a football match in Canada. Hopefully, that will continue.

What is truly a farce is when people come out and say the Vs are racists, or homophobes, or whatever. Joining this group has been a huge eye-opener for me. It's been my first and only experience to truly connect with my countrymen. When a guy posts "I'm a separatist, but I support the MNT," it completely makes sense to me. We are inherently global thinkers, in comparison to the majority of hardcore hockey fans. We live and have lived around the world. We travel. We speak foreign languages. Many of us are old, some of the tougher ones about us are too young to have a pint in Seattle . Most of us are ugly judging from the lack of female Vs. But we're all immigrants and we all have some connection to the auld country. And at the end of the day, it's the members of the Voyageurs who are in the minority. We need to stand up for ourselves and one another or we will perish. Full stop.

[Toronto MB]

quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

Many of us are old, some of the tougher ones about us are too young to have a pint in Seattle .

You'll be glad to hear I have since dubbed myself as a faux Albertan, complete with drivers license and U of A card to complete my 21-and-over identity.

And any toughness was bred as a young lad in the enemy-friendly stands of Varsity stadium. I never dreamed we would come so far so quickly, standing with a whole stadium of support at BMO was a dream come true.

Onwards Voyageurs, we know exactly what needs to be done, and how to do it.

[Keegan]

quote:Originally posted by Toronto MB

You'll be glad to hear I have since dubbed myself as a faux Albertan, complete with drivers license and U of A card to complete my 21-and-over identity.

And any toughness was bred as a young lad in the enemy-friendly stands of Varsity stadium. I never dreamed we would come so far so quickly, standing with a whole stadium of support at BMO was a dream come true.

Onwards Voyageurs, we know exactly what needs to be done, and how to do it.

We stuck together. We need to be confident. When I step into the stadium with the Vs or when we are outnumbered 10 to 1 there are certain things I believe. WE are the best, I don't care who we are playing, we own that stadium and no foreign bastards are going to take our own stadium away. And if they want to try to start **** they can come get some because people are getting the message across to each country one by one that in OUR country that **** doesn't stick.

[mcaout]

quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

What is truly a farce is when people come out and say the Vs are racists, or homophobes, or whatever. Joining this group has been a huge eye-opener for me. It's been my first and only experience to truly connect with my countrymen.

Since I brought up homophobia, I assume this is directed at me. I don't believe I said all Vs are homophobic. I said I didn't like the homophobia I heard at the game. By no means did everyone say homophobic things. Mostly it was angry and reactionary in the moment, like Honduran dives and someone yells 'get up you fag.' What I don't get is why not 'get up you cheat' or 'get up you a**hole' instead.

I just brought it up because it bothers me in general. It seems really common to associate homosexuality with weakness or stupidity in people's language today. I don't like it. So I mentioned it bothered me to hear it at the game. Do I expect it to stop, anywhere? No.

The only thing bringing Vs together is an interest in soccer, so that means there will be a wide spectrum of different points of view on other topics.

quote:Originally posted by squizz

And I won't go looking for a fight, but if I'm in Montreal and I see a fellow Canadian supporter getting his head kicked in by opposing fans, I'm not going to stand by and do nothing.

I respect this, and would hope every V would do the same. I think my earlier posts were possibly harsh towards some who reacted in that situation. People should be protected. Also at the start of this thread there was less details about why people got involved and more posts just happy that someone got there hands on Hondurans. My first hand experience was that there were a good number who would have been happy to start something. To those who were just reacting to people being attacked you did the right thing to get involved.

quote:Originally posted by amacpher

This reminds me of that NHL game (for some reason I'm thinking it was in Vancouver, but I'm not 100% sure), where a fan behind the visitor's bench calmly stood-up and poured beer over a coach's head. Needless to say a melee ensued and anyone who thinks that such a reaction from the visitor's bench wasn't justified or that the culprit didn't deserve at least a good, solid punch in the face... well, you're wrong! Plain and simple.

Thinking about it more, and as said above, to expect any other reaction at this time is naive. Clearly those Hondurans wanted to start a fight. amacpher might ask the question "what do you expect?" He's right, I shouldn't expect anything else, especially in that situation. I think to other sporting events and the same would have happened. I certainly hope I've not come off as defending the Houndurans who were fighting. I also want to be sure that I mention like many others I recognize the actual melee wasn't much but I still worry that in Fifa's "wisdom" any kind of fan violence around or in the venue could have dire consequences in the future.

[Soju]

quote:Originally posted by Most Scottish Man in Cdn.

Anyway this isn't really about racism it's about a tight-knit and long established group of people taking offence at a relative newbie weighing in, in what seems like critical opposition.

Cheers for clarifying in your post. For the record I agree with your main point. As someone from a "rich" country I feel a certain disgust when I hear our people doing the 3rd world country and these kinds of chants. RE the idea that the people on this board are very cliquey, I have never met these guys since I live abroad, but have never felt that way. I just know from what I've seen written here what the Voyageurs are and what they aren't.

[Soju]

quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

My apologies to all for bumping this back in the rotation. I just wanted to add a few random thoughts:

I've always been a bit uncomfortable with patriotism, probably going back to my travels through Europe where you'd encounter Canadians who wanted to talk hockey, the Hip, and compare everything to home. I felt bad for the Swedish guy who got cornered and by a Canuck (often me to be fair) and made to talk about hockey, rather than football with the rest of the lads. And of course the ultimate conclusion we seek generally seek to that conversation is that we're the best and you should bow down.

I haven't admitted this, but I attended my first WCQ with a childhood friend from Guatemala. We sat right between the two sections and I did feel uncomfortable hearing the taunting of "You're going home to a third world country!" But my friend and his brothers couldn't care less, I assure you. They knew they were in the face of the home side and they completely deserved anything that came at them.

I've never really talked with this friend about the psyche of of the Central Americans who, not only come out to cheer for their native country- but feel the need to flaunt it in our face. I suspect the reason is that they have no respect for the game in Canada. Since they've come here, all they've heard about is hockey and curling and therefore many of them are likely surprised when they arrive at the match that we exist at all.

I'm sure some Englishman somewhere has drafted a much more eloquent sociological study on the attraction of males to yobbishness. All I can say is that it's an opportunity to be free from the daily grind and behave in a way that feels good. And, to my knowledge, nobody has ever been seriously hurt at a football match in Canada. Hopefully, that will continue.

What is truly a farce is when people come out and say the Vs are racists, or homophobes, or whatever. Joining this group has been a huge eye-opener for me. It's been my first and only experience to truly connect with my countrymen. When a guy posts "I'm a separatist, but I support the MNT," it completely makes sense to me. We are inherently global thinkers, in comparison to the majority of hardcore hockey fans. We live and have lived around the world. We travel. We speak foreign languages. Many of us are old, some of the tougher ones about us are too young to have a pint in Seattle . Most of us are ugly judging from the lack of female Vs. But we're all immigrants and we all have some connection to the auld country. And at the end of the day, it's the members of the Voyageurs who are in the minority. We need to stand up for ourselves and one another or we will perish. Full stop.

This is an excellent post. I think it summarizes what a lot of us have been through and feel.

[JayWay]

quote:

But we're all immigrants and we all have some connection to the auld country.

Not me