Post-match melee

[Guest Ed]

quote:Originally posted by mcaout

I agree Ed that the Hondurans who went over the top, throwing beer, were in the wrong. But why do we suggest greater security and seperating fans? So many posts have this idea. Yet to me, it sounds like your suggesting, as many also do, that the Vs should inforce their own rules in the stands. Generally there is a lack of fear. The Houndurans aren't worried and they don't respect what we could do to them. Is that really so terrible? Do we have to forge a reputaion here? Get the Piss bags? Knives out? Are we going to take our support style from places like Central America (Which is widely condemed here as classless and violent) Turkey, Serbia, and European Firms?

I think we share the same sense of the respect away support should have. I will agree with anyone saying that the few Hondurans throwing beer started the melee are a**holes who should have been thrown out. But I can also say there were Canadian voices around me, well up for starting things long before the end of the game. I don't like people starting things either side.

My Denmark example is extreme, granted. But it happened and all it took was one person losing their sh**. My point was more about self control in general and how buying loads of drinks and calling people "legends" for showing none doesn't help. I think it would just lead to future problems, which could run a foul of Fifa, which could cost Canada.

You put my name up there but nowhere have I talked about greater security or separation of fans. I am coming to the defence of the fellow (whether he wants it or not) who, quite rightly in my opinion, did not stand by with his thumb in his ass when a Honduran taunted his group at their park when everyone was in a foul alcohol-fueled mood. If you think he was wrong, that is your opinion.

And to the Scottish fellow, you brought up the concept of 'firms' in the UK and how they would show us 'Cdns' a thing or two. A lot of that going around in Nova Scotia? I can't recall anything from my youth there in the Annapolis Valley. It was all black vs white in those days. Not very nice times at all.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by squizz

You know, if we don't make it out of this round, I really hope it's the Jamaicans who do, rather than the Hondurans. At the end of the Toronto match, I was hanging out and chatting with some Jamaican guys. At the end of the Montreal match, I wanted to rip the Hondurans' eyes out.

Yah mon!

Much more laid back to be sure.

[squizz1402635577]

Since I got this thread going, I should probably step in and make clear where I stand on all of this. With the benefit of a night's sleep (since I didn't get one on Saturday night in Montreal) I realize that in my initial post, it did seem like I was glorifying violence in the stands to some extent... probably due to a potent hangover of anger, disappointment and bitterness at nearly every aspect of the match (including the pre- and post-).

My testosterone-filled bad judgment years, it seems, are not yet behind me. I was loud, profane and angry during the match, and prepared to jump into the fracas when I saw guys in red being assaulted. That being said, I don't condone or encourage racism or violence in the stands. Now, I will gladly tell any opposition fan to go f*ck themselves as creatively as I can, but I will not use explicit racial epithets. And I won't go looking for a fight, but if I'm in Montreal and I see a fellow Canadian supporter getting his head kicked in by opposing fans, I'm not going to stand by and do nothing.

I agree that fostering a "hooligan" movement within Canadian soccer circles will ultimately do neither us - nor the team - any good. At the same time, we have to confront the reality that, as the Vs grow in number, events such as these can and will happen again, unless the CSA and the venues collaborate to ensure that the ticketing/seating procedure and security measures are up to international standards for important matches.

Despite the debacle that was Montreal, the days are gone when the only Canadian support on home soil would be 25 hardcores and a couple hundred silent casuals. When this was the case, there was virtually no chance that violence would erupt - none of the Canadians would dare initiate it. However, as the Vs grow in number and in strength, the inevitable reality is, as with any cross-section of humanity, that there will be a few shameless racists and agitators who come along.

This is why the best course of action we can take is to work with the CSA to ensure that opposition support is limited and segregated, and that the rest of the stadium is filled with pro-Canadian fans (be they Vs, club supporters, casuals or *gasp* soccer moms). This not only limits the possibility of violence and helps expose new fans to the game, it also lessens the influence of the blatant racists and agitators by, well, giving them less to be angry about.

The alternative is that Canadian home matches continue to feature 500 hardcore Canadians surrounded by thousands of opposition supporters. This, in reality, is the most potent recipe for anger, resentment, racism and violence.

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

Running onto the pitch and attacking a player is quite far removed from some asshole Honduran supporter getting his teeth knocked down his throat for taunting a pissed off home crowd. I applaud the heat of the moment action from the nameless Toronto fan .

Yeah, I agree. Assuming no 'Honduran' got seriously hurt the instigators probably got no more than what they deserved.

Why are people defending them?

[mcaout]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

You put my name up there but nowhere have I talked about greater security or separation of fans. I am coming to the defence of the fellow (whether he wants it or not) who, quite rightly in my opinion, did not stand by with his thumb in his ass when a Honduran taunted his group at their park when everyone was in a foul alcohol-fueled mood. If you think he was wrong, that is your opinion.

Sorry Ed for the confusion, you're right you made no statements about security or separtion. I was however refering to the Vs in general(mostly on other topics about this game. ) when I asked: "why do we suggest greater security..."

I see your opinion, and I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

quote:Originally posted by Mimglow

I was in row 7 of 114, and by the 65th minute I knew things were going to get ugly. There were a couple of "taunters" near me who started spewing every hateful racist barb you could fling at a hispanic, and they didn't shut up even when some V's pointed out that they should tone down their rhetoric. In fact, the intervention almost started a fight.

As the V's grow, it is only natural that this ugly faction tries to find a home in our group. It will be a test of the Voyageur Movement to see how we deal with these hooligans. I'll admit I didn't do much to stop them, except my final action before bolting from the stadium after the final whistle was to try and talk down a few supporters next to me who kept saying they were looking for a fight. I don't know if it worked, as I got my girlfriend and little brother the hell out of there before things REALLY turned.

From my viewpoint, it was clear that the "trouble" was started by, if not V's, red-wearing Canada supporters in our section. Someone earlier mentioned that the Hondurans showed their class in how they handled a victory, but I would suggest that just as equally many Canadian supporters showed their class in how they handled a defeat.

Listen, I was just as pissed off that the stadium was pro-Honduran. Was I ready to fight some Hondurans to show them whose "house" it was? Sorry boys, my testosterone-filled bad judgment calls are years behind me.

I couldn't agree more.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by Mimglow

I was in row 7 of 114, and by the 65th minute I knew things were going to get ugly. There were a couple of "taunters" near me who started spewing every hateful racist barb you could fling at a hispanic, and they didn't shut up even when some V's pointed out that they should tone down their rhetoric. In fact, the intervention almost started a fight.

As the V's grow, it is only natural that this ugly faction tries to find a home in our group. It will be a test of the Voyageur Movement to see how we deal with these hooligans. I'll admit I didn't do much to stop them, except my final action before bolting from the stadium after the final whistle was to try and talk down a few supporters next to me who kept saying they were looking for a fight. I don't know if it worked, as I got my girlfriend and little brother the hell out of there before things REALLY turned.

From my viewpoint, it was clear that the "trouble" was started by, if not V's, red-wearing Canada supporters in our section. Someone earlier mentioned that the Hondurans showed their class in how they handled a victory, but I would suggest that just as equally many Canadian supporters showed their class in how they handled a defeat.

Listen, I was just as pissed off that the stadium was pro-Honduran. Was I ready to fight some Hondurans to show them whose "house" it was? Sorry boys, my testosterone-filled bad judgment calls are years behind me.

I have to completely disagree with this Mimglow. I won't say our section was completely innocent or did not yell unsavoury things out to the Hondurans (who in turn were doing the same to us). However, I was in one of the lower rows and when the final whistle blew there was so much beer thrown at us that it seemed like it was raining and a lot of other stuff was thrown at us as well. I was standing on a chair and saw that it was the Hondurans in 113 that were throwing this stuff. I don't know who threw the first punch but it was the Hondurans throwing stuff at us that started off the melee.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

There was a guy in row 16 who was trying to get at Hondurans and constantly swearing, but eventually he calmed down and I don't think he took any part in the post game scrap. He said himself he had an anger management problem, and he was the only one saying anything directly to the Hondurans that I could hear.

[amacpher]

This reminds me of that NHL game (for some reason I'm thinking it was in Vancouver, but I'm not 100% sure), where a fan behind the visitor's bench calmly stood-up and poured beer over a coach's head. Needless to say a melee ensued and anyone who thinks that such a reaction from the visitor's bench wasn't justified or that the culprit didn't deserve at least a good, solid punch in the face... well, you're wrong! Plain and simple.

Similar situation with this.

BTW, does anybody have the video of the incident I ellude to? Might enlighten some people about the level of stupidity involved in dumping/throwing beer or anything else at someone who doesn't see it coming.

[Most Scottish Man in Cdn.]

Well at least he isn't calling me a twat anymore.

For a valley raised Calgary resident to know what the word firm means in the context of football obviously I wasn't speaking in some private Scots language. That's what gangs of hooligans are called in Britain are they not? If there is no "Canadian" equivalent term why wouldn't I use the British one?

I wasn't saying "Canadians" couldn't handle themselves only some of the people who'd posted in this thread, which granted was something I said out of anger and was stupid and for which I later apologised several times.

Anyway can we just be friends and unite in our hatred of Dale Mitchell now please?

[italianboy]

i dont think we are giving all hondurans there fair share of credit, theres gonna be idiots on both sides but after the game when i was sort of afraid to leave the stadium in red a couple of hondurans came up to me and asked to shake my hand, which i found pretty nice. with all the venom in this thread i think its fair to give the majority of the fans there some due and not associate them with those assh****

[Guest speedmonk42]

quote:Originally posted by Most Scottish Man in Cdn.

Well at least he isn't calling me a twat anymore.

For a valley raised Calgary resident to know what the word firm means in the context of football obviously I wasn't speaking in some private Scots language. That's what gangs of hooligans are called in Britain are they not? If there is no "Canadian" equivalent term why wouldn't I use the British one?

I wasn't saying "Canadians" couldn't handle themselves only some of the people who'd posted in this thread, which granted was something I said out of anger and was stupid and for which I later apologised several times.

Anyway can we just be friends and unite in our hatred of Dale Mitchell now please?

Thank goodness that neither side is anything remotely like the organized groups of a$$holes that exist in Europe. Comparatively speaking this was nothing.

That is a GOOD thing.

And yes, lets start the stomping of Dale Mitchell.

[Most Scottish Man in Cdn.]

Thank you. I think we can all agree he is a huge part of the reason we're all so angry right now.

[Toronto MB]

Some of you will already have noted my invovlment in all of this, so I wanted to clarify.

Ultimately we all agree that we in no way see that our role as the Voyageurs, Canada's leading soccer supporters, should incorporate hooligan or violent tactics into our plans for supporting Canada on any match day.

That being said, we have all gone to great lengths to help establish a burgeoning soccer supporters culture at Canada's home games. This specifically includes creating an atmosphere of home support and respect for the Canadian national team.

When following a crushing defeat at home to any nation be it Honduras, England or the United States, I, as a Voyageur, do not find it acceptable for an away supporter to march into what is clearly defined as our section in an attempt to taunt or disrespect our team.

This is simply not something I will observe passively.

Herein lies a very Canadian ethical dilemna in that we want to establish our cultural identity, but struggle to find the proper balance in respecting the identities of our all-encompassing multiculturalism.

So my answer in this case is that I will always endeavour to support our boys in a positive and respectful manner. But I will no longer sit on my hands in the event that our team, home-stadiums, and football culture is disrespected by ill-behaved away supporters.

This has nothing to do with race, social stature or nationality. It simply refers to any individual supporting the away team, in what is designated as a pro-Canadian section.

This is a respected standard in international football, and it must be respected here.

[Guest speedmonk42]

The two oddest exchanges of the night.

1. A group of Hondurans who went ballistic on some Canadian supporter of Latino descent. He was just looking at them like "what?" They were ready to crucify him and he just looked so confused. All Latinos should support each other ect... Which makes me wonder how many locals supporting Honduras were...

2. At McLeans bar, the saddest part of the night for me. When I walked in a group of 19-20 year old French Canadian kids asked me why I was wearing a Canada shirt. I told them about the game and they asked me who won. I said we lost and they all went "yes" and cheered with such false manufactured enthusiasm and then looked at me to say something. I just walked away and sat with Grizzly. Reminded me why I left a city I really really like.

[Most Scottish Man in Cdn.]

I agree with what you say 100% Toronto but I think the real blame for this episode lies not with a group of drunk patriots on either side but with...once again...the idiocy of the CSA, which is why even if they did sack Mitchell it wouldn't matter cos they'd bring in some other idiot.

[Keegan]

I don't go looking to start **** or fights. But if it is necessary to defend the club/country/fellow fans then it must be done.

You can't establish a culture here without consequences for away supporters actions. No longer will we be walked on at home.

Which is what happened in Montreal.

[Mimglow]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

I have to completely disagree with this Mimglow. I won't say our section was completely innocent or did not yell unsavoury things out to the Hondurans (who in turn were doing the same to us). However, I was in one of the lower rows and when the final whistle blew there was so much beer thrown at us that it seemed like it was raining and a lot of other stuff was thrown at us as well. I was standing on a chair and saw that it was the Hondurans in 113 that were throwing this stuff. I don't know who threw the first punch but it was the Hondurans throwing stuff at us that started off the melee.

Grizz, we saw and heard it two different ways, then. I know for a fact though that people around me were predicting violence and looking to incite it. That means that in our midst are people who will one day give the V's a black eye.

I don't need to outline for you that there are surely a few intrepid reporters out there who would like nothing more than to "expose" the "dark side" of Canada's soccer faithful. Having V's as protagonists in a soccer riot would be juicy newspaper fodder for sure.

[roue]

quote:Originally posted by italianboy

i dont think we are giving all hondurans there fair share of credit, theres gonna be idiots on both sides but after the game when i was sort of afraid to leave the stadium in red a couple of hondurans came up to me and asked to shake my hand, which i found pretty nice. with all the venom in this thread i think its fair to give the majority of the fans there some due and not associate them with those assh****

That was my experience as well , I watched the last 15 minutes at the Honduran goal end in the beer garden ,close to the Carlsberg stand .There were about 30 Hondurans there and about 5 Canada supporters ,everyone got on well there . After the win , Honduran women were hugging everyone and the men were shaking everyone's hands , disappointing result but c'est la vie

[Guest speedmonk42]

quote:Originally posted by Toronto MB

Some of you will already have noted my invovlment in all of this, so I wanted to clarify.

Ultimately we all agree that we in no way see that our role as the Voyageurs, Canada's leading soccer supporters, should incorporate hooligan or violent tactics into our plans for supporting Canada on any match day.

That being said, we have all gone to great lengths to help establish a burgeoning soccer supporters culture at Canada's home games. This specifically includes creating an atmosphere of home support and respect for the Canadian national team.

When following a crushing defeat at home to any nation be it Honduras, England or the United States, I, as a Voyageur, do not find it acceptable for an away supporter to march into what is clearly defined as our section in an attempt to taunt or disrespect our team.

This is simply not something I will observe passively.

Herein lies a very Canadian ethical dilemna in that we want to establish our cultural identity, but struggle to find the proper balance in respecting the identities of our all-encompassing multiculturalism.

So my answer in this case is that I will always endeavour to support our boys in a positive and respectful manner. But I will no longer sit on my hands in the event that our team, home-stadiums, and football culture is disrespected by ill-behaved away supporters.

This has nothing to do with race, social stature or nationality. It simply refers to any individual supporting the away team, in what is designated as a pro-Canadian section.

This is a respected standard in international football, and it must be respected here.

If Montreal has any black mark against it, it is with security. Two extremely serious security violations need to be addressed, though I am not sure both were even managed by the same people. We can no longer afford to dodge bullets.

Security issues must be addressed immediately for future national team games. This has to be the number one priority between us, the CSA and the local organizing committee (if there is one).

[Keegan]

quote:Originally posted by speedmonk42

The two oddest exchanges of the night.

1. A group of Hondurans who went ballistic on some Canadian supporter of Latino descent. He was just looking at them like "what?" They were ready to crucify him and he just looked so confused. All Latinos should support each other ect... Which makes me wonder how many locals supporting Honduras were...

2. At McLeans bar, the saddest part of the night for me. When I walked in a group of 19-20 year old French Canadian kids asked me why I was wearing a Canada shirt. I told them about the game and they asked me who won. I said we lost and they all went "yes" and cheered with such false manufactured enthusiasm and then looked at me to say something. I just walked away and sat with Grizzly. Reminded me why I left a city I really really like.

I came into McLeans after too. And had a group of kids a couple years older than me probably 19-20 ask me who won and when we said Canada lost they were genuinely dissapointed. Later at 2 am in a Burger King we talked to a guy and he seemed to know all about the team, saying the "ball is round anything can happen" in the next couple games.

Before that outside a club some latino guys talked to us and they knew about Canada. Saying Canada lost because "Sutton wasn't there"

[Mimglow]

Oh, and for the record, I HATE the fact that I have to take this stance on this issue. But I gotta call it the way I saw it.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by speedmonk42

The two oddest exchanges of the night.

1. A group of Hondurans who went ballistic on some Canadian supporter of Latino descent. He was just looking at them like "what?" They were ready to crucify him and he just looked so confused. All Latinos should support each other ect... Which makes me wonder how many locals supporting Honduras were...

2. At McLeans bar, the saddest part of the night for me. When I walked in a group of 19-20 year old French Canadian kids asked me why I was wearing a Canada shirt. I told them about the game and they asked me who won. I said we lost and they all went "yes" and cheered with such false manufactured enthusiasm and then looked at me to say something. I just walked away and sat with Grizzly. Reminded me why I left a city I really really like.

First, the whole Latino solidarity thing is a Yankee invention, the "raza" thing, it does not really exist and the divisions in Latina America are enormous, culturally, linguistically, politically.

Second, what happened at you after the game would happen with any Spaniard celebrating a Spain victory in Catalonia or the Basque Country. Even if the team was full of Catalans or Basques (both the soccer and basketball teams have a strong Catalan contingent). That is the reality, but for a minority I think. A minority want Canada to fail at everything, a big chunk are secretly or quietly happy for a Canada win but probably would not want to express it as exhuberantly as an anglo, and a good chunk have no problem celebrating a Canada win, but maybe not with certain followers who might be suspect of an extreme Canadian nationalist position.

Doesn't that make sense to you?

I try to cultivate an open minded attitude for my son, we support our neighbourhood team, the CAtalan teams, and the Spanish teams, and he puts up with me following Canadian teams. But I think that position in a place like CAtalonia, like in Québec, is not as widespread as some think.

[Guest speedmonk42]

I heard all sorts of **** I don't want to hear coming from our side of the fence.

We need total enforced segregation of the fans.

Several of our people did seriously stupid ****, so did theirs.

You can't walk up to a grandmother aged lady with two kids and scream at her to 'go back to her fcking' country.

[littleD]

I don't know what y'all were getting down to on the other side of 114, but all seemed fairly calm in the area I was standing. Not sure what row I ended up in, but near the aisle, seat 26 area. The only "trouble" was when a couple with a Honduras flag started creeping over to 114 shortly after Honduras scored the second goal. A couple of us kindly told them that it was probably a bad idea. That's about all I saw from that end of the section.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

The only way to sort this out is to stage a good fight and force the CSAs hand. Stage a fight to force them separate the fans and isolate the visitors.

I know this sounds dumb, since all confrontation in the end hurts the fans, especially fans like us. But there has got to be a way to make the CSA understand how to set up the seating, and all I can think of it to threaten violence or stage it.