Everyone's down on the Italians?

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by loyola

Ok, I figured out what kind of soccer fans you are...in fact you're a basketball fan you need some points to appreciate a game. By your logic when Italy scores 3-4 goals (like in that 2006 WC 1/4) they should've let their opponent scores 2 just to make it an appealing scoreline. Yes, that should be so nice to watch.

I just don't think being well-organized at the back means your playing catenaccio or are a boring defensive side. Of course Italy isn't Brazil or Argentina but still Italy has been involved in some pretty good high quality games over the years. But if you prefer watching a Brazil vs CR (4-2, 1st round in 2002 WC) where there's virtually no defensive from both teams it's your choice, but that's not an high quality game but their a high number of goals. BTW, Italy

I prefer quality over quantity but I respect your desire of watching a basketball game.

Well, I'm aware that there are some great nil-nil and 1-nil matches. But the bottom-line is, if a team plays positive football (and by that I mean the opposite of how they played against Spain [xx(]), then eventually they would be involved in some high-scoring matches!

You may have a point about the Ukraine match, but Ukraine are rubbish sans Sheva. I was thinking more of the matches against the good teams where Italy always seem to try to kill the game, and I think that's why most "neutrals" don't want to see Italy progress deep into major tournaments. IT's especially frustrating since Italy obviously has the offensive talent where they shouldn't need to bunker for 90/120 minutes.

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by amacpher

Well, I'm aware that there are some great nil-nil and 1-nil matches. But the bottom-line is, if a team plays positive football (and by that I mean the opposite of how they played against Spain [xx(]), then eventually they would be involved in some high-scoring matches!

You may have a point about the Ukraine match, but Ukraine are rubbish sans Sheva. I was thinking more of the matches against the good teams where Italy always seem to try to kill the game, and I think that's why most "neutrals" don't want to see Italy progress deep into major tournaments. IT's especially frustrating since Italy obviously has the offensive talent where they shouldn't need to bunker for 90/120 minutes.

Yes, the last time Brazil was involved in an high scoring game against a quality team during a WC was in 1994 (3-2 vs the Netherlands) and they won their 3 others playoffs games by scoring 2 goals...

Also, can you remind me the last time Argentina put more than 2 goals against a quality side in the WC? Try 1986 final.....

In the end, it's just that, when the best teams are playing each other in those competition you'll rarely see high scorelines even if you're called Brazil, Argentina, Germany, Italy or France.

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by loyola

Yes, the last time Brazil was involved in an high scoring game against a quality team during a WC was in 1994 (3-2 vs the Netherlands) and they won their 3 others playoffs games by scoring 2 goals...

Also, can you remind me the last time Argentina put more than 2 goals against a quality side in the WC? Try 1986 final.....

In the end, it's just that, when the best teams are playing each other in those competition you'll rarely see high scorelines even if you're called Brazil, Argentina, Germany, Italy or France.

Brasil and Argentina played a classic in Copa America 2004 final (though it was a real shame that they didn't play extra-time and went to PK's after 90 min). Germany just had one with Portugal mere weeks ago. Holland were bringing on attackers when they were 2 or 3 goals to the good and scored 7 goals against 2 quality sides. Spain too with 7 goals in 2 matches against a strong Russian side. Even Turkey were involved in a classic against Germany.

Italy's most memorable games this century (after the Germany game) was: 0-0 with Holland in 2000; clinging to 1-nil lead over France in 2000; 0-0 with Spain in 2008; clinging to 1-nil lead over.... wait for it... SOUTH KOREA [:0].

Like I say, its a real shame because during this time they've had far better strikers than Spain, Portugal, Czech Republic or Germany and forwards in the same league as Brasil, Argentina and Holland (granted you can say the same about France), not to mention by far the best goal-keeper in the world to save you should holes appear at the back.

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by amacpher

Brasil and Argentina played a classic in Copa America 2004 final (though it was a real shame that they didn't play extra-time and went to PK's after 90 min). Germany just had one with Portugal mere weeks ago. Holland were bringing on attackers when they were 2 or 3 goals to the good and scored 7 goals against 2 quality sides. Spain too with 7 goals in 2 matches against a strong Russian side. Even Turkey were involved in a classic against Germany.

Italy's most memorable games this century (after the Germany game) was: 0-0 with Holland in 2000; clinging to 1-nil lead over France in 2000; 0-0 with Spain in 2008; clinging to 1-nil lead over.... wait for it... SOUTH KOREA [:0].

Like I say, its a real shame because during this time they've had far better strikers than Spain, Portugal, Czech Republic or Germany and forwards in the same league as Brasil, Argentina and Holland (granted you can say the same about France), not to mention by far the best goal-keeper in the world to save you should holes appear at the back.

Yes, the 2-0 over Germany in 2006 must be the most memorable one and I would feel like that win over the Netherlands felt good for the italians who had a defender sent off in the first half of that game...

It's a bit ironic that the games you're qualifying as classics are almost all including big keepers mistakes (in this Euro). I don't know, those games were pretty entertaining but like I told you I prefer quality over quantity. I'm not going to encense Germany because they can score against keepers who are flapping at crosses or because they're inept at defending (and I'm including Lehmann).

The quality displayed by all the players on the pitch between Germany and Italy in 2006 hasn't been match in this Euro.

[jimstam]

I supported Italy on its quest to 1982 World Cup. Zoff, Rossi, loved that team and being Greek I liked to see neighbors win.

Then for the next four years I heard nothing but bragging from Italian teammates.

Ever since then, the highlight of my tournament is when Italy lose.

Oh Korea 2002, Argentina 1990, France 1986, the 2-2 Sweden/Denmark, Spain 2008, Ahhh France 1998 and 2000, Brazil 1994, these are some of my favorite highlights in soccer. More exciting than Spain Germany, who cares who wins?

I remember a female bankteller day after 1994 World Cup Final settled on PKs, mentioning "But we didn't lose, official result was a 0-0 draw."

But oh how she must have been partying and saying we are the champions after 2006 world cup final. Doubt she was saying we are not champions because it was a draw.

I was in a Lebanese shop and everyone was cheering wildly when Romania scored... almost everyone is a closet anti-soccer Italy team rooter..

that does not mean they don't like their food, people and fashions..the two can co-exist!

When they win, no one brags and reminds you more they won.

Was an article in National Post or Globe and Mail last week, "Italians in denial" that hit it on the nail.

When Greece won, they had many neutral/underdog supporters and Greeks were for the most part the first to tell u this was a once in a lifetime occurence. Yes, there are some who bragged but those were the bandwagon fans ones who never saw a qualifying game in their lives.

Just once I'd like see them say they we lost cause "they were better than us" instead of 50-thousand excuses of why they lost...

From referees to shoes to The Fix, to our coach,, bla bla bla.

Maybe if they got humble i would support them again.. maybe that will never happen!

[loyola]

Well, from my experience Italians as much as French people and Brazilian have been proud of their teams performances in the past 10 yrs. I'haven't been particularly offended by the behaviors of those fans, it's just patriotism and the WC is a big event. I have some friends who kept saying that France was such a great team a few yrs ago and it was just in good fun, I really don't get why people are so offended by some Italians bragging about their victory when pretty much all the fans are doing this (only the dutch I,ve found pretty negative about their team but I guess we know why....).

But if I look at the players and coaches behaviors, no one has been worst than France in the past 2 yrs with Domenech sour loosers comments after the WC. I felt the italians were classiers after their defeat to Spain. Maybe I missed something but they pretty much all said they were beaten by a better team and wishes them good luck.

[pulsar]

quote:Originally posted by loyola

Well, from my experience Italians as much as French people and Brazilian have been proud of their teams performances in the past 10 yrs. I'haven't been particularly offended by the behaviors of those fans, it's just patriotism and the WC is a big event. I have some friends who kept saying that France was such a great team a few yrs ago and it was just in good fun, I really don't get why people are so offended by some Italians bragging about their victory when pretty much all the fans are doing this (only the dutch I,ve found pretty negative about their team but I guess we know why....).

But if I look at the players and coaches behaviors, no one has been worst than France in the past 2 yrs with Domenech sour loosers comments after the WC. I felt the italians were classiers after their defeat to Spain. Maybe I missed something but they pretty much all said they were beaten by a better team and wishes them good luck.

you didn't miss a thing. Like i said in my previous post, everyone in italy acknowledged how crappy the team played and thought losing was a blessing. The players knew they didn't have what it took. Fans outside italy? Well they probably cried and made excuses.

The Italian media, more than other medias...not sure about Brazil, Argentina and other big footballing nations; the media tends to blow everything WAYYYY out of proportion here. They love a good story and have no problems exaggerating...just part of daily life.

When you watch the football shows here, the highlights are cut, dissected, examined and scrutinized more than a cancer research lab (no offense anyone) it is boring but thatt's how the old school do it...change is happening here, both on and off the pitch.

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by jimstam

Just once I'd like see them say they we lost cause "they were better than us" instead of 50-thousand excuses of why they lost...

From referees to shoes to The Fix, to our coach,, bla bla bla.

Maybe if they got humble i would support them again.. maybe that will never happen!

Yeah, my favorite excuse this tournament: "Italy only played boring against Spain because they were missing Pirlo."

[pulsar]

quote:Originally posted by amacpher

Yeah, my favorite excuse this tournament: "Italy only played boring against Spain because they were missing Pirlo."

Are any of these "excuses" in print because i can't seem to find any quotes of this nature you say, anywhere here in italy. Or are these just random quotes heard on the street?

If someone said above excuse to me i would say they know nothing about football and then call them on the fact that they are jumping on a bandwagon every two years.

Also i never saw a player make excuses for their poor play....at least on camera, in this tournament, although this is usually left to the coach but that is his job. Look at TFC coach Carver after the loss against the Whitecaps. Now i never saw this match but if it is as bad as he says then i think he has a legitimate claim. Look at all the hockey coaches complaining, basketball etc....

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

quote:Originally posted by amacpher

Firstly, your implication seems to be that head-butting someone in the chest makes you far more hated than spitting on someone. I'd disagree.

Secondly, you miss my point. If France win 4 world cups in-a-row, their style of play will only be picked apart and critisized even more by non-French people.

Also, although Italy weren't boring in WC 2006, lets not pretend they played beautiful football. The only classic involving them was the Germany match, but you could pretty much say that about most Germany matches in the last 2 tournaments. The Australia, USA and France matches also stand-out, but only for the wrong reasons.

I hate to drag this back up, but it depends on what you consider 'attractive' football. For instance, a lot of people love the EPL because they consider it fast and exciting, while all I see is a bunch of guys hoofing the ball around and running at a frantic pace, turning the ball over every ten seconds. That, in my opinion, is not attractive football. And while Brazilian football features incredible ball skills, the tactical element of it is minimal.

Italian football isn't about out-running (England) or dancing past (Brazil) your opponents, it's about out-smarting your opponents. Italy will never produce a Ronaldinho or a Cristiano Ronaldo because that's not what Italian football is about. It HAS, however, produced the likes of Francesco Totti and Roberto Baggio, 'fantasisti' who can do things that even Pele never could.

Italy, in my opinion, played great football at the 2006 World Cup. They kept possession, they broke sides down with their tactical strength and intelligent, accurate passing, and they were able to defeat sides based on strength (Ghana), technical skill (Czech, France) and organization (Germany) with their game. Not to mention, you don't go an entire tournament conceding only two goals- Zaccardo's own goal and an extremely questionable penalty against France- solely through luck.

I wouldn't say there's RACISM against Italians per se, but a lot of anglo people seem to just have these deeply ingrained stereotypes about calcio that they hang onto no matter what's actually happening on the pitch in front of them. You know, they cheat, they dive, they pay the refs, they whine when they lose, they just stay in front of their area the whole match, etc.

The thing is that the English really have no moral high ground to stand on. Their one World Cup win came under suspicious circumstances, Steven Gerrard and Wayne Rooney are two of the most infamous divers around, and I seem to recall rather a lot of 'whining' every time they've been eliminated from a tournament.

As has been said before, the reason Italy are hated on is because they win.

[Massive Attack]

amacpher is blinded by his biases, so his opinions on Italy should not be taken seriously.

Anyone who thinks the Serie A is still boring hasn't been paying attention lately. If you wanted to say that 15 years ago, I would agree with you. But things have changed dramatically.

And anyone that doesn't give Italy credit for their 2006 World Cup victory is just bitter.

You can't call Italy whiners or sore losers. Unless you also consider the Irish whiners.

[the biologist]

quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

You can't call Italy whiners or sore losers. Unless you also consider the Irish whiners.

I think you're overstating a bit here !

I agree with everything you said except that.

I don't have a real soccer background like most of you here but from what I've seen I agree italian soccer has changed. Actually, if you live in the Villeray-St-Michel borough near La Petite Italie (Little Italy) like I do, there's a good chance you know something about italian soccer ! I watched every WC since '94 and even with the little I know I can say that's obvious Italy today isn't the same country soccer-wise they used to be.

BUT, that being said, you can't put every country on the same level when it comes to whining. To say all 200+ countries whine the same is simply not the reality. I know you didn't say that explicitly but that's what you're implying nonetheless with your comparison with Ireland, given what we all know happened recently.

Things have changed, but you can't do a complete 180° in such a little time period. Every country whines when they lose... OF COURSE !!! But to put Italy on the same level as any given country is not right IMO. They've got a history about this that some others don't and there's a reason why. Stereotypes don't emerge out of nowhere you know ! I'm fully against stereotypes, but at the same time stereotypes are rarely 100% false as well.

So to sum up, they aren't the same anymore, true, but when I see my Italian friend (fan of Serie A) and the neighbourhood around when it's Euro or WC time (even CL time), I really feel there's something ingrained in many Italians, something cultural, that they whine more than many other people coming from other countries. Of course, they often go far in competitions, so sure, they've got more (and more important) opportunities to whine about how close they came to win, etc. But still...

quote:Originally posted by I_AM_CANADIAN

I wouldn't say there's RACISM against Italians per se, but a lot of anglo people seem to just have these deeply ingrained stereotypes about calcio that they hang onto no matter what's actually happening on the pitch in front of them. You know, they cheat, they dive, they pay the refs, they whine when they lose, they just stay in front of their area the whole match, etc.

I agree with you, but once again, these ingrained stereotypes come from an ingrained soccer culture. Don't forget they played this way for YEARS and the change occured fairly recently. Here's a timeline on how stereotypes work in THIS case. First, there's the apparition of the culture. Years after noticing the trend, people started to grow stereotypes. Now that Italians have modified their culture and are aware of what other nations think about theirs, they expect the stereotypes to disappear faster than they appear. That won't happen ! There are two reasons why people still thinks the same about Italy. First, because stereotypes always take MUCH MORE time to disappear than to appear. Second, because they haven't completely changed...

[loyola]

Canadians soccer fans whine a lot more than Italians soccer fans.....[]

[wolf]

The nazis also won for a while. I guess everbody should have shut up and stop being critical. Further as per your rationale that means people hate brazil more.[^] You sneaky dog you. You just don't get it, alot of people just don't like the way you play.

quote:Originally posted by I_AM_CANADIAN

I hate to drag this back up, but it depends on what you consider 'attractive' football. For instance, a lot of people love the EPL because they consider it fast and exciting, while all I see is a bunch of guys hoofing the ball around and running at a frantic pace, turning the ball over every ten seconds. That, in my opinion, is not attractive football. And while Brazilian football features incredible ball skills, the tactical element of it is minimal.

Italian football isn't about out-running (England) or dancing past (Brazil) your opponents, it's about out-smarting your opponents. Italy will never produce a Ronaldinho or a Cristiano Ronaldo because that's not what Italian football is about. It HAS, however, produced the likes of Francesco Totti and Roberto Baggio, 'fantasisti' who can do things that even Pele never could.

Italy, in my opinion, played great football at the 2006 World Cup. They kept possession, they broke sides down with their tactical strength and intelligent, accurate passing, and they were able to defeat sides based on strength (Ghana), technical skill (Czech, France) and organization (Germany) with their game. Not to mention, you don't go an entire tournament conceding only two goals- Zaccardo's own goal and an extremely questionable penalty against France- solely through luck.

I wouldn't say there's RACISM against Italians per se, but a lot of anglo people seem to just have these deeply ingrained stereotypes about calcio that they hang onto no matter what's actually happening on the pitch in front of them. You know, they cheat, they dive, they pay the refs, they whine when they lose, they just stay in front of their area the whole match, etc.

The thing is that the English really have no moral high ground to stand on. Their one World Cup win came under suspicious circumstances, Steven Gerrard and Wayne Rooney are two of the most infamous divers around, and I seem to recall rather a lot of 'whining' every time they've been eliminated from a tournament.

As has been said before, the reason Italy are hated on is because they win.

[the biologist]

quote:Originally posted by loyola

Canadians soccer fans whine a lot more than Italians soccer fans.....[]

No need to be so harsh ! You just killed a fly with a bazooka !

[SoccMan]

The Italians play to win,period, the name of the game is winning not trying to play attractive soccer for everyones enjoyment. However, the Italian game is a very tactical game, where every action,every movement has a purpose just like playing chess. However, you still need skilled and talented players to reach your goals, and Italian players are some of the world's most skilled and talented players. Look at that Italy versus Germany semifinal at the last World Cup, Italy played a masterful tactical game and when the Germans started to look vulnerable Italy went in for the kill scoring 2 great goals in the dying minutes of the second half of overtime. If you want to understand the Italian way of playing watch that game again and you will get a better understanding of how they play the game.

[wolf]

So no one else plays to win only the italians Brilliant Observation! My just friend it's the methods that are highly questionable, machavellian in essence, and cynical in the spirit of sport. When they lose it's pointing fingers and when they win, the road to glory littered with ugly incidents. I ain't buying and if you are, your a sucker. If you remember just before the last world cup campaign there was a huge cloud of scandal back home in regards to match fixing,refs,etc,that was ready to implicate players on the national team. The timing was perfect. You can't help but deduce that for the players it was either produce or pay. I guess when they won the cup alot of it went hush and swept. Other then some token measures taken such as Juve being relegated to second division. With poor Juve executive Perotto jumping out a window you can't help but smell a foul air. I bet you all forgot that one. Or the intent to injure cheap shot cannavaro did on henry in the beginning stages of the world cup game. They do not play the beautiful game. But instead try to corner it.

quote:Originally posted by SoccMan

The Italians play to win,period, the name of the game is winning not trying to play attractive soccer for everyones enjoyment. However, the Italian game is a very tactical game, where every action,every movement has a purpose just like playing chess. However, you still need skilled and talented players to reach your goals, and Italian players are some of the world's most skilled and talented players. Look at that Italy versus Germany semifinal at the last World Cup, Italy played a masterful tactical game and when the Germans started to look vulnerable Italy went in for the kill scoring 2 great goals in the dying minutes of the second half of overtime. If you want to understand the Italian way of playing watch that game again and you will get a better understanding of how they play the game.

[the biologist]

quote:Originally posted by SoccMan

The Italians play to win,period, the name of the game is winning not trying to play attractive soccer for everyones enjoyment.

So how do you want non-Italians to appreciate their playing/tactical style ? Also, this is just not a reason to WHINE ALL THE TIME, FAKE LIKE PUSSIES ALL THE TIME and ACT LIKE PRIMADONNAS ALL THE TIME [xx(] . I also tend to agree with wolf on that:

quote:Originally posted by wolf

My just friend it's the methods that are highly questionable, machavellian in essence, and cynical in the spirit of sport. When they lose it's pointing fingers and when they win, the road to glory littered with ugly incidents.

How many non-Italians SoccMan do you know who support Italia in int'l competitions ? It simply is IMPOSSIBLE !!! Stop pretending there's only their playing style that causes problems in people's mind, the thing everyone LOATHES is your SOCCER CULTURE. I'll say it again so you don't miss the point, PEOPLE ARE DISGUSTED BY ITALIA'S SOCCER CULTURE</u>. wolf brought up good examples and there's way more, you probably are well aware of those examples yourself.

[loyola]

Here we go again....I'm staying out of this one.

[gringo]

I cannot believe the crap I'm reading here.

I've lived in South America and Europe and Italian Football is certainly appreciated there. Some here spit out nothing more than disgracefull agendas. I have been around this game at many levels for over 40 years. Italian football has always been a staple leader of the game along with a very few other nations. Four stars remember. This is a football culture respected all over the world.

Some misrepresent passion for complacency and other things.

[SoccMan]

In the end I don't think the Italian national soccer team cares about the style of soccer they play and how many non Italian soccer fans they have. In the end the results are all there to see. I have already stated why they play like they do and the tactical side of the soccer they play. I think one of the reasons for the hating is the Italian Canadian population is rather large in most major urban centers here in Canada, and when Italy wins a World Cup it is a big celebration, and naturaly so, who wouln't celebrate in large numbers if the population is there. The irony of it all though is that mighty old England is now guided by an Italian and look at how well England has done in the qualifying and I believe will have a good World Cup. If you watched England play during the qualifying you could see England playing some of that Italian soccer in the English game, they are playing a much more smarter,tactical, saving energy style of soccer instead of their usual full force soccer and then running out of energy soccer and giving games away games in the end.

[the biologist]

Maybe, but this ?

quote:Originally posted by SoccMan

I think one of the reasons for the hating is the Italian Canadian population is rather large in most major urban centers here in Canada, and when Italy wins a World Cup it is a big celebration, and naturaly so, who wouln't celebrate in large numbers if the population is there.

? ? ?

Hey, the last time around there were huge celebrations in Little Italy and Jean-Talon street and every non-Italo was happy for them, smiling to them and even some applauding them. People don't support the team in general, but once all is said and done, people are happy for them if they win. I don't know elsewhere but here in Montreal people like to party so whatever country wins, people will celebrate with the winner. We like to say here "Maudits Français" but when France won... well you know the point. Most people like the way Italians are and their culture in general. I don't know where you're going with this...

[wolf]

That's the problem they don't care how they get the result, and that's admirable? please. No wonder alot of people don't support them. Give me Barcelona any day of the week or Spain, Brazil, Holland, No wonder people see through it and are just not interested when they win. Crap?? Mr Gringo! It would not be wise not to investigate or question where there is smoke. Now that your presumably back in north american shores by code we have to install alarms.Catch my drift? Paolo Rossi 82 banned for 3 yrs for match fixing reduced to 2 yrs just in time for 82 World Cup. They would have been lost without him. Ya want more? I guess when they win you kind of question what their values are. And it's damn annoying that they like to throw their stones from the glass houses they live in. I have said my piece.

quote:Originally posted by SoccMan

In the end I don't think the Italian national soccer team cares about the style of soccer they play and how many non Italian soccer fans they have. In the end the results are all there to see. I have already stated why they play like they do and the tactical side of the soccer they play. I think one of the reasons for the hating is the Italian Canadian population is rather large in most major urban centers here in Canada, and when Italy wins a World Cup it is a big celebration, and naturaly so, who wouln't celebrate in large numbers if the population is there. The irony of it all though is that mighty old England is now guided by an Italian and look at how well England has done in the qualifying and I believe will have a good World Cup. If you watched England play during the qualifying you could see England playing some of that Italian soccer in the English game, they are playing a much more smarter,tactical, saving energy style of soccer instead of their usual full force soccer and then running out of energy soccer and giving games away games in the end.

[SoccMan]

Hey Wolf life is too short if the way the Italians play and win bugs you so much as is evident from your posts, then stop watching and reading about them if you can, you will be a happier person. The Italians will not change their way of playing soccer because it has brought them success many times. Moreover, I can see you like to exagerate things when it comes to the Italian national team. Believe what you want to believe, no one can change your opnion,however, try not to think about the Azzurri too much if it upsets you, it's not good for the health, and for your sake and sanity I hope Italy does not win the next World Cup, you see Wolf I care about you.

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by wolf

So no one else plays to win only the italians Brilliant Observation!

Yeah I don't quite get that "plays to win" expression.

Reading this thread you'd think they were still the best team in the world but Spain, Brasil and even England have blown past them. Even I almost felt embarrassed for Italy the last couple of times they played Brasil.