G-Man Posted June 13, 2006 Author Share Posted June 13, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Rudi Out of those three cities, only NY did not pull its weight, so to speak. LA had 17,000+, and Chicago outdrew its own capacity for the public safety match. Don't really have time to respond to everything else as I'm about to leave work, but I have to say that despite our obvious difference of opinions on the matter, I'm enjoying this civilized discussion. Contrast this to my constant debates with a malicious board regular who shall remain nameless, and this is rather refreshing! just about to leave work...hahahahhahaha. those that live in glass houses... one day rudi, me and you are going to get together get pissed and try to pick up ugly euro whores on the danford. and we'll laugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 Rudi still doesn't get the point that the SSS's that are being built aren't meant to save soccer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOareaFan Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 quote:Originally posted by DoyleG Rudi still doesn't get the point that the SSS's that are being built aren't meant to save soccer. I think Rudi just chooses to take the most optimistic view and then point to events/facts that support that. I may have a longer history (being old as I am) in watching/supporting soccer in this country and I find that the optimistic events/facts are fewer and farther between. He is right, there was a decent crowd in LA (17k+) and and optimistic sign in Chicago (over 12k for a game that was supposed to be limited to 12k) but, I imagine, that everyone who showed up in Chicago was let in so I am not sure you could just extrapolate that to a sell out and, after the initial "new stadium sell out" anyway, how many will be there on a regular basis (the SSS in Dallas and Columbus are certainly not producing sellouts). The biggest flaw in his "argument" however is the "only New York is letting us down" feature. New York is the straw that stirs the drink in N.A. sports. No league that I know of has "made it" long term without New York buying in. Even the NLL is expanding to NY...why?....because they have to. IMO, a good crowd in LA a decent and explainable one in Chicago but with a horrible crowd in NY and disappointing crowds in Columbus and Dallas does not make for a good or encouraging weekend for MLS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 quote:Originally posted by DoyleG Rudi still doesn't get the point that the SSS's that are being built aren't meant to save soccer. Whatever, DoyleG. I suppose they're being built to destroy soccer. So what if SSS's are also built with other events in mind. Please name me one major stadium built over the past 25 years in North America that wasn't built with concerts and alternate money-spinning events in mind as well as the sport it was built for. And even if they aren't meant to save soccer, what if they do it anyways? But perhaps they should go back to playing in over-sized stadia that are not owned by the team's owners. We all saw how well that worked in Edmonton and Calgary. quote:Originall posted by TOareaFan The biggest flaw in his "argument" however is the "only New York is letting us down" feature. New York is the straw that stirs the drink in N.A. sports. No league that I know of has "made it" long term without New York buying in. I'll ignore the extremely condescending way you referred to my "argument" and simply respond. My argument is not that "only New York is letting MLS down", because quite frankly, so are Kansas City, Colorado and Dallas. I'm fully aware that any North American league needs a New York franchise to survive, and MLS is aware of this fact as well. Why else does New York always get friendlies and doubleheaders featuring big foreign teams? My point is that New York has been a clusterfrick for at least 4 years now, and Red Bull had just taken over the team in March. Their plan (or what we know of it) to save the team is far more sound that continuing along the MetroStars route of playing in a money pit (Giants Stadium rent is $250,000 per game) with a piss poor team that will never attract any new fans. But jumping all over Red Bull as being poor management is extremely hasty given that they've owned the team for no more than 4 months, and inherited perhaps the worst collection of talent in MLS. They just spent $100 million buying into the league, so it's safe to assume that they're going to try their damndest to nmake things right in NY/NJ. Only time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOareaFan Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Rudi I'll ignore the extremely condescending way you referred to my "argument" and simply respond. Wasn't meant to be condescending at all. I put it in quotes only because I did not want the word argument to paint you, in any way, as confrontational. Last time I used the word on a discussion board it created a whole argument about the difference between arguing and debating. quote: My argument is not that "only New York is letting MLS down", because quite frankly, so are Kansas City, Colorado and Dallas. Again, I was just responding to your earlier point, sorry if I mis-understood it. quote:I'm fully aware that any North American league needs a New York franchise to survive, and MLS is aware of this fact as well. Why else does New York always get friendlies and doubleheaders featuring big foreign teams? Has to be disturbing, however, that it is New York (with its size and cosmopolitan nature) that needs all this support. That is the one city that I would expect there to be decent crowds just by opening the doors....no? quote: My point is that New York has been a clusterfrick for at least 4 years now, and Red Bull had just taken over the team in March. Their plan (or what we know of it) to save the team is far more sound that continuing along the MetroStars route of playing in a money pit (Giants Stadium rent is $250,000 per game) with a piss poor team that will never attract any new fans. But jumping all over Red Bull as being poor management is extremely hasty given that they've owned the team for no more than 4 months, and inherited perhaps the worst collection of talent in MLS. They just spent $100 million buying into the league, so it's safe to assume that they're going to try their damndest to nmake things right in NY/NJ. Only time will tell. No doubt they are committed......my only point is that MLS is of an age now (what is it 10) that I would have hoped that the league's product alone should attract more than 10k through the doors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Man Posted June 13, 2006 Author Share Posted June 13, 2006 The biggest mistake of all pro soccer leagues in North America is to believe that they can put up EPL attendance numbers. That kind of demand will never be there. 10K is a good crowd in markets like Chicago or even New York. And leagues have to live with the financial limitations that those gates bring. Soccer wil never get a decent TV contract. So count that out. The MLS is the ECHL of pro soccer. It has to start acting as it, if it wants to survive into the next decade. If Toronto FC get 5k a game, I'll be amazed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOareaFan Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 quote:Originally posted by G-Man The biggest mistake of all pro soccer leagues in North America is to believe that they can put up EPL attendance numbers. That kind of demand will never be there. 10K is a good crowd in markets like Chicago or even New York. And leagues have to live with the financial limitations that those gates bring. Soccer wil never get a decent TV contract. So count that out. The MLS is the ECHL of pro soccer. It has to start acting as it, if it wants to survive into the next decade. If Toronto FC get 5k a game, I'll be amazed. I think you are a bit light on your guess, but not by much. I think they should expect 8 - 10k per game. You do make a good point, however, that those crowds can work if you manage expectations and expenses. Outside of Celtic and Rangers, for example, the teams in the SPL survive on crowds of that size (or less). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Man Posted June 18, 2006 Author Share Posted June 18, 2006 10k in New York 9K in Toronto 13K in Houston All during a high profile WC week-end. The crowds in Houston are getting smaller and smaller, so much for a honeymoon period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan I think you are a bit light on your guess, but not by much. I think they should expect 8 - 10k per game. You do make a good point, however, that those crowds can work if you manage expectations and expenses. Outside of Celtic and Rangers, for example, the teams in the SPL survive on crowds of that size (or less). Very true, and the disparity between the quality of the teams fielded is very dramatic to say the least. Another thing to keep in mind is that every SPL club has a league television revenue of around 2 million pounds per season (plus whatever they can raise individualy). For Hearts that's not exactly a huge amount of revenue but still a big hunk of coin. For Inverness, it represents probably better than 50% of their player budget. And the travelling supporters, especially the Old Firm but also the capital clubs, can really inflate the attendances and are a great source of revenue. I don't think you'll see one end of NewEx filling up with 5,000 Chicago Fire travelling supports twice a year. I only point this out (and yes I'm repeating an already mentioned point about TV revenue) as an example of how Big Fish are able to prop up the Little Fish in a small league. Hard to guess what attendances will be like. I don't think they're going to be especially high either to be honest, but you never know. 10 thousands a likely number, excepting a few spikes here and there is a safe guess. Pretty sure MLSE is expecting an up front hit the 1st couple of years with other events at NewEx offsetting the MLS losses. I worry that it's the yearly MLS "cash calls" which'll sting. Toronto FC can still do everything right and get bled to death propping up the league they play in. This is of course assuming that MLS will still be organized the same in 2010 as it has been up to 2006. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 quote:Originally posted by G-Man 10k in New York 9K in Toronto 13K in Houston G-Man, you're so transparent. Not only did you once again leave out the highest attendance of the day (New England - 16,000), but you also somehow had 9,000 in Toronto. We must be doing something right as the south stand of our stadium was just put up over the past couple of weeks and we've already got 9,000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 You keep showing how you just want to pick fights with people Rudi. 16,000 in New England was thanks to having the US/Italy game on the big screens there. As was stated by DCU and Revs fans at the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Man Posted June 18, 2006 Author Share Posted June 18, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Rudi G-Man, you're so transparent. Not only did you once again leave out the highest attendance of the day (New England - 16,000), but you also somehow had 9,000 in Toronto. We must be doing something right as the south stand of our stadium was just put up over the past couple of weeks and we've already got 9,000. Oops me bad. That 9K is in KC. And that 16k is the best night in Boston all year. WOW! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 quote:Originally posted by DoyleG You keep showing how you just want to pick fights with people Rudi. 16,000 in New England was thanks to having the US/Italy game on the big screens there. As was stated by DCU and Revs fans at the game. Every week he conveniently leaves out the highest attendances. As for how the fans got to New England, those were all American soccer fans supporting the American game (both national and club). What's wrong with that? And really, Doyle, who am I picking fights with?I'm just pointing out that G-Man is leaving all all of the facts to support his own slanted view. And since when are you G-Man's defender? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOareaFan Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Rudi Every week he conveniently leaves out the highest attendances. As for how the fans got to New England, those were all American soccer fans supporting the American game (both national and club). What's wrong with that? And really, Doyle, who am I picking fights with?I'm just pointing out that G-Man is leaving all all of the facts to support his own slanted view. And since when are you G-Man's defender? I am very interested in the averages and, once again, the average this weekend looks to be around 12k.....is this good enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 quote:Originally posted by G-Man that 16k is the best night in Boston all year. WOW! Were you not the one who stated that MLS should not expect EPL-type crowds? Yet you spend all your time here slagging the crowds that they do get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan I am very interested in the averages and, once again, the average this weekend looks to be around 12k.....is this good enough? Whether it is or not, I think it's obvious that you don't feel it is. Would you be asking the same question if the average was 20k? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Man Posted June 19, 2006 Author Share Posted June 19, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Rudi Were you not the one who stated that MLS should not expect EPL-type crowds? Yet you spend all your time here slagging the crowds that they do get. 16K in a market of 4 million after getting 11k for it's home opener and a crowd as low as 6K. With the 16K, they're averaging slightly over 12k. As for the the NY game, they played the Galaxy. A big draw in the league. The NASL did 4 times the fans than the MLS in NYC. This is a league that has lived past it's due date and is nearing the end, unless it cuts back on costs. It's a dull product that hasn't caught anyone's imagination in it's 11 seasons. And expanding into Canada was a cynical cash grab to stem the bleeding temporarely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOareaFan Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Rudi Whether it is or not, I think it's obvious that you don't feel it is. Would you be asking the same question if the average was 20k? Probably not....something about 20k sounds better to me. Yes, you are right, I do not think that MLS should be pleased with average attendances of around 12k at this point in its development. The 4 games that this discussion has shown attendance for this weekend (were there others) include matches in cities where, frankly, I would expect more "automatic" fans (New York with its size and cultural diversity, Boston with its Irish/european roots and Houston with its spanish/mexican heritage)....I know very little (ie. nothing) about KC as a city but I would be very disappointed in having mid-seasonish games in NY, Boston and Houston and generating an average (for those 3 games only) of 13k. NY continues to be a very particular concern (IMHO). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan NY continues to be a very particular concern (IMHO). Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 quote:Originally posted by G-Man As for the the NY game, they played the Galaxy. A big draw in the league. You're right. Hordes of fans show up at every away game just to get a glimpse of the likes of John Wolyniec and Peter Vagenas. Your knowledge of the league amazes me. How can a league with crap attendance (as you love to point out every single day) have teams that are 'big draws'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Man Posted June 20, 2006 Author Share Posted June 20, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Rudi You're right. Hordes of fans show up at every away game just to get a glimpse of the likes of John Wolyniec and Peter Vagenas. Your knowledge of the league amazes me. How can a league with crap attendance (as you love to point out every single day) have teams that are 'big draws'? as someone with his own sports blog, you should know that even roller derby leagues have big draw teams. And someone who loves the MLS, you shouldn't point out that the big names in the MLS like Wolyniec aren't even big names in their own homes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 quote:Originally posted by G-Man as someone with his own sports blog, you should know that even roller derby leagues have big draw teams. And someone who loves the MLS, you shouldn't point out that the big names in the MLS like Wolyniec aren't even big names in their own homes. I'm realistic about the league and its growth (and there has been been, perhaps not in attendance, but in stability and corporate support). I don't confuse MLS with the EPL, but on the flip side I also don't spout off unsubstantiated claimns that the league is on its death bed simply because I don't like it. The LA Galaxy and John Wolyniec are crap. Being a fan of the league, I can say that with some sort of knowledge behind that statement. I'm a fan of the NHL too. Does that mean I'm not allowed to think that certain players (such as Ty Conklin or Patrick Lalime) are crap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOareaFan Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Rudi Agreed. Well....this weekend had no NY home game amongst the 6 games played and attendance got the boost of having Chicago open their new stadium. Combined with the Galaxy playing at home (to what seems like a typical +/- 17k crowd) that brought the weekend average up to almost 15k (14,902 to be exact).....all-in-all, a better weekend for the league...not where I would (if I had money invested) expect them to be at this stage, but better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Man Posted June 30, 2006 Author Share Posted June 30, 2006 mo johnson is gone. well there goes the scottish percentage of Red Bull fans.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 If things didn't get any worse for RBNY...... http://www.bigapplesoccer.com/article.php?article_id=6431 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.